Q. That was a mistake made by the gentleman who preceded you?-A. It has more than doubled.

Q. That was very largely the case during the life of the treaty of Washington?A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did not Nova Scotia make a very heavy increase in two years there?-A. Very heavy.

FRESH FISH.

Q. In your opinion what would be the result of a treaty which should provide that for fifteen or twenty years our markets should be entirely free to the Canadians for fish? A. The present generation of Maine fishermen would all go out; they would be obliged to.

Q. Give up the business?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have any of your vessels had any trouble there this season?-A. No, sir.

Q. Have any of them been into the Canadian ports?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then, I understand you, there is nothing, so far as you are engaged in the fishing business, that you want of Canada?—A. No, sir.

CLOSE SEASON.

Q. What do you say about the close season?-A. I believe that we should have it. Q. Why?-A. It has been very well stated here that the spawn fish are prevented from coming on to our coast to spawn, as they naturally would if they were let alone. Q. The fish that come when they are carrying spawn are small and poor, are they not?-A. No, sir; they are large and poor.

Q. In your opinion, is there any difficulty about supplying cheap fresh fish in the months of April and May, even if there is a close time on mackerel?—A. No, sir.

EXTENT OF MACKEREL FISHERY.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. What is the number of sail engaged in the fishing business at this port?—A. I think we have about 150 sail on the books of the Portland Mutual Insurance Company; that may not be far from the number of vessels from this port.

By Senator FRYE:

INSURANCE.

Q. What is the average cost of insurance in mutual companies?-A. The last ten years I think it has been about, perhaps less than, 2 per cent for the season.

Q. How is it that the average in Gloucester is 9 per cent?-A. They do much more winter fishing, Georges fishing, which is much more hazardous than ours. A BYSTANDER. Their season is shorter, too.

The WITNESS. We are in trouble now; we have two vessels ashore at Malpeque; I am just arranging to-day to send a diver there; I have telegraphed to Halifax to ascertain if they would allow it; we have not received any answer; we understand they will not allow us to remove the ballast. They are very nice vessels, and we insured them for about $11,000.

Q. What is the ballast?-A. It is rock.

Q. You understand that they do not allow you to remove that ballast of rock?—A. We understand so. I am president of the insurance company, and I engaged a diver to go to-night, on the chance of being permitted to remove the ballast. We have an agent at Malpeque who has endeavored to engage divers, but they have none, or would not furnish any; they said their divers were busily engaged and could not accommodate him. Therefore we are at their mercy, and if we are not allowed to send divers from here we must lose the vessels.

Q. Where is Malpeque?-A. On the north side of Prince Edward Island.

LOCAL TAXATION OF VESSELS.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. Are your vessels here properly subject to taxation for local purposes? In some of the States they do not subject them to local taxes.-A. Yes, sir; they are subject

to taxation.

Q. What is the rate of taxation?—A. About 21⁄2 per cent.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. How do they assess those vessels--at full value?-A. No, sir.

Q. About how much?-A. When a vessel is new they make the assessment at nearly its full value, but the assessment is reduced quite fast as the years go by. Q. Is it reduced faster than the depreciation of the vessel?-A. Yes, sir; and at twenty years they drop it out.

DEPRECIATION OF FISHING VESSELS.

Q. What do you account the annual depreciation of a fisherman?-A. The first five years the depreciation would be from 5 to 8 per cent, and at the present outlook it would be much more than that.

Q. The depreciation would be very much larger on those vessels engaged in winter fisheries, would it not?-A. Yes; somewhat larger.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. What is the average life of your fishing vessels?-A. The average life before retopping, as we term it, is about fifteen years; then they have to be retopped; the bottom, of course, never rots, being saturated with salt.

Senator SAULSBURY. That is all.

The WITNESS. There is one point I would like to bring out.

EXPORTATIONS AND TRANSSHIPMENTS.

Senator SAULSBURY. State anything you desire.

The WITNESS. In regard to Nova Scotia interfering now with our export business; they are cutting us off very much from our export business.

By Mr. FRYE:

Q. How?-A. By bringing their fish here and having them go through our customhouse free of duty, and shipping them to ports that we have formerly supplied with fish; while they don't allow us to bring a barrel of fish from the Bay over their railroad, we are allowing them to bring here all the fish they choose and reship them to the West Indies free of duty and expense and shutting us off from that trade.

Q. You are not aware that any restriction has been placed upon them in our country in relation to that transit?-A. Not that I know of.

Q. And you are aware of the fact that they do not allow us to land any of our cargoes and transship there?—A. Not any this year.

Q. And I suppose it is further a fact that nearly all their fresh fish are sent in that way to Boston market, are they not?-A. Yes, sir.

CANADIAN PORT PRIVILEGES.

Q. Would it be an advantage for our fishermen to land there and ship to Boston?A. It would if they were fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. We formerly landed cargoes at Shediac and refitted and sailed.

Q. That has all been cut off since the treaty of Washington?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Saulsbury insists that that point applies to all other classes of property.— A. I presume all classes of property would be subject to the same. I think they are much more indebted to us for the two privileges of bait and reshipment of fish than for any they can give to us.

Q. They do not make the same application to all registered vessels that desire to enter; it is only the fishing vessels?-A. Only the fishing vessels.

Q. Is there anything else you desire to state?-A. No, sir.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE TREFETHEN.

GEORGE TREFETHEN Sworn and examined.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Where do you live?-A. Portland.

Q. How old are you?-A. Almost fifty-seven.

Q. What is your business?-A. Fish dealer.

Q. How long have you been in the business?-A. Thirty-four years.

Q. Are you an owner of fishing vessels?-A. No, sir; I am not an owner of fishing vessels now; I do own one piece of a fishing vessel; I formerly owned a dozen or more pieces.

Q. So that your principal business is dealing in fish? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What kind of fish?-A. Dry, salt, and pickle fish, and all kinds of sea fish. Q. Are you a wholesaler?-A. Yes, sir.

EFFECT OF DUTY UPON CONSUMER.

Q. What, in your experience, is the difference between the wholesale price of fish and the price which the consumer pays?-A. I think at present the prices of dry fish are nearly a hundred per cent more than the first cost.

Q. In your opinion, does the duty upon salt fish affect the price of fish to the consumer?-A. No, sir; I don't think it does.

Q. Who do you think pays the duty?—A. I think the men that ship them here pay it.

Q. The Canadians?-A. The Canadians.

Q. But if it has any effect at all it is only between the Canadians and fishermen?— A. Perhaps there ought to be a little qualification in that respect; it may have a slight effect on the purchaser. The amount of fish brought in from Nova Scotia, compared with the amount taken by our own people, is small; I do not see how it could have a perceptible effect except in rare instances when we are short of catch and they have a large catch.

Q. Now, as to fresh fish: Do you know the difference between the prices of the wholesaler and the prices of the retailer for fresh fish?—A. Somewhat.

Q. What is the relation of those to each other?-A. I should say about threefold. Q. That is to say, the consumer pays threefold more than the wholesaler pays?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. If there was a duty upon fresh fish, do you think it would affect the consumer at all?-A. Hardly; the amount is so small in comparison with our own catch that it does not seem to have any significance relatively.

FRESH FISH IN ICE.

Q. Under the present construction of the tariff allowing "fish, fresh, for iminediate consumption," to come in free, and under modern processess, is there any difficulty about keeping fresh fish on shipboard for ten days or a fortnight?-A. Not

any.

Q. And then taking them in refrigerator cars to Boston and New York?-A. None at all, practically.

Q. So that practically fresh fish could be kept as fresh fish for months?-A. Yes, sir; they are practically cured.

DUTY.

Q. Do you know of any reason, if there is duty on frozen fish, why there should not be on fresh?-A. I do not.

Q. In bringing a cargo of fresh fish from Canada is there any difficulty at all in sending them to Boston or any other place whatever, and immediately curing the whole cargo?-A. I don't see any reason why it can't be done.

Q. And thus escape the duty?-A. I think the Canadians charge us a duty on fresh fish, the same as on salt.

Q. Yes, they do. Do you know of any nation that does not charge us a duty if we send them fish?-A. I do not, and some of them are pretty hard chargers, too.

BAIT.

Q. Are you familiar with the fishery business?-A. I think I am.

Q. Is there any necessity of our going into Canadian ports to buy bait for cod fishing on the Banks?-A. I don't think there is, except in rare instances. I can conceive of a case where it would be beneficial to go into a Canadian port for fresh bait. Q. Such as what?-A. A vessel leaving port here with fresh bait, going trawling, meeting adverse winds or bad weather, the bait might become injured before they got on the fishing grounds, or before they used the bait; in such a case it might be advantageous to be able to run into a near port instead of going a long way home to renew the supply. I think it is rarely that would happen, but occasionally it might. I think the strongest reason, perhaps, for our vessels going into Canadian ports is having Canadian men aboard, Nova Scotians, that want to see their families; they want to go home, and they make it an excuse half the time that they want to get some bait, when they only want to go into port and have a good time.

Q. You being acquainted with the fishing business, if you had twenty vessels engaged in the cod fisheries, which should you prefer, that the captains of your cod

fishermen should every season go into Canadian ports to buy bait, or that they should take bait originally when they leave here, and not go into Canadian ports except for shelter, repairs, or wood and water?—A. I should prefer that they should keep away from the ports.

Q. You think it would be more profitable?-A. I do. From 1852 to 1875 I was part owner of eight or ten cod fishermen and mackerel fishermen, and was somewhat interested in the business. I do not think to my knowledge we ever bought a barrel of bait of Canada.

Q. And part of that time you had the privilege?-A. Part of the time we had the privilege.

AMERICAN AND CANADIAN RECIPROCAL PRIVILEGES.

Q. Do you know anything that our fishermen require from Canada in this matter of fishing?-A. We require the privilege of their ports in case of stress of weather. Q. I mean outside of what we are entitled to under the treaty.-A. I don't think of anything else. It might be an advantage to us to ship our mackerel home, to have commercial privileges the same as our merchant marine has; I don't see why we shouldn't be entitled to them.

Q. Do you know whether these fishermen generally take permits to touch and trade?-A. Several of them did this spring, but it amounted to nothing.

Q. The Canadian authorities would not recognize them?-A. No, sir.

FREE FISH.

Q. What would be the effect upon our fisheries if Canada should obtan a treaty which would give her our market free for fifteen or twenty years?-A. I think it would be virtually the extinction of our Bank fisheries, our mackerel fisheries. We should probably continue the shore fishing with smaller vessels and small boats. We are suffering now from the effects of the large increase the last two or three years of the continuance of that treaty.

Q. In consequence of the increase of the Canadian fleet?—A. Yes, sir; that is where we are suffering now. They are going to die, but they die hard. They have their vessels and are keeping them afloat as long as possible in hopes to accomplish another reciprocity treaty. That is one thing that has created an oversupply of fish, principally Bank fish. If they are allowed to increase and have our markets free, it seems to me that it will be the extinction of our fisheries; I don't see anything else in store for us. They are feeling very bad about paying this duty, and it goes pretty hard with them with the low prices. I buy quite a large lot of Nova Scotia fish myself; I have had one or two cargoes a month for the last three months. They bring them here and we buy them.

DUTY.

Q. Who pays the duty-you, or they?-A. I know that I don't. I furnish the money to do it, but it comes out of the price of the fish. We buy their fish at a little less than we buy our own.

Q. Even with the duty on?-A. Yes, sir.

BAIT.

Q. Have they been in the habit of coming in here, without let or hindrance, to buy bait? A. Yes, sir; to buy anything they want, and lay twenty-four hours or fortyeight or a week if they want to, in the lower harbor, without let or hindrance, without entering.

Q. Has any trouble ever been made with them this year about it at all?—A. The only case I have heard of was at Booth Bay.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

PROVINCIAL FISH.

Q. You say you deal in Nova Scotia; what proportion of the fish that come to this market are fish caught by the provinces?-A. I should say that in my business I buy perhaps a quarter part of Nova Scotia fish.

Q. What kind of fish are those?-A. Codfish principally; very few mackerel come here from Nova Scotia.

Q. Do you think that the quantity of fish from Canada and Nova Scotia that comes to this market affects the price at all?—A. Well, I do think they have an effect; they are a class of fish that comes here in direct competition with another class that our people cure here.

Q. I am speaking now of the cod and mackerel?-A. The codfish principally. The mackerel might as well be left out, as far as the competition of this port is concerned with Nova Scotia; they don't bring them here; they send them to New York, Chicago, and Boston directly from Halifax and those ports there; but they do not come to Portland. I think I can safely say that there have not been a thousand barrels of Nova Scotia mackerel landed in Portland from Nova Scotia vessels in two years; I don't know of it, and I think I should know if that had been the case.

HERRING.

Q. Do you catch any herring with your fishermen from here?-A. Oh, yes; thousands of barrels are caught in the fall of the year, about this time. If you were to walk down upon our wharves at this time you would see fish-packing establishments surrounded by barrels of herring that have just been landed."

Q. Do you think the herring caught in the waters of the provinces and Canada affect the prices of herring in the market?-A. I don't see how they can very materially; the price is so very low that after they pay the duty there don't seem to be anything left.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. What is the price of herring?-A. About $3 a barrel here.

Q. How many pounds?-A. Two hundred pounds. The fish business is away down at the lowest possible grade of existence.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

MACKEREL.

Q. That does not apply the present year to mackerel, does it?-A. No; the prices are high, but the mackerel are scarce, so it does not help the fisherman.

Q. The price of fish, just like every other commodity, depends upon supply and demand?-A. Just so.

By Senator FRYE:

FRESH FISH AND HADDIES.

Q. I suppose that most of the fresh fish they send here come by rail, do they not?-A. The most of them come by rail and steamer. Most of the fresh fish that are brought from the provinces come by steamer to Boston from Yarmouth and Halifax.

Q. They do not come to Portland much?-A. Some come on the St. John steamer from Digby and St. John, principally halibut. But the St. John people buy more fresh in Portland and in Boston than we buy of them. They depend upon us for their winter haddies. They come to Boston and buy thousands and thousands of pounds of fresh haddock. The Canadian Government has put an extra duty upon haddies cured in the United States in order to protect their people there. The duty has been made high, and yet they can come over to Boston and buy fresh haddock, take them to St. John and smoke them, and ship them to Ottawa, Montreal, and everywhere else in that country at a half a cent less than we can, and still make a profit. That involves a little financiering.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

CANADIAN DUTY ON HADDIES.

Q. How are they able to do that?-A. The Canadian government puts a special duty on haddies.

Q. And you have to pay the duty when you send them there?-A. Yes, sir. Q. The duty in Canada you think bears upon you who send the fish in there?-A. Yes; naturally.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. EMERY.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

JOHN A. EMERY, sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. What is your business?-A. I am in the salt business, and am a vessel owner and commission merchant.

S. Doc. 231, pt 5-52