know that they had any right to enter. But this year I think they were anticipating some trouble, and so far as I know I think they all entered. I was in Liverpool this spring, and my vessel lay at Brooklyn, the adjoining town, and we had to go to Liverpool to enter. We got in at night and lay until the next afternoon. I asked the collector how long I could lay, and he told me I could lay as long as I had a mind to. They didn't give me any harbor regulations; didn't tell me what I should do or not do. He didn't tell me I should come in immediately and enter the vessel as soon as I arrived there. He seemed to be a very nice man, quite like a gentleman; that was Mr. Dunlap, of Liverpool.

Senator SAULSBURY. The Liverpool the witness has been speaking of is not Liverpool in England?

Senator FRYE. No; Liverpool, Nova Scotia.

TESTIMONY OF T. C. LEWIS.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

T. C. LEWIS sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Where do you live?-A. Portland.

Q. How long have you lived here?-A. Twenty-five years.

Q. What is your business?-A. Fish business.

Q. Owner of a vessel?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been in the fish business?—A. About twenty years.

Q. In Portland?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many vessels are you interested in?-A. I think I am interested in 14 or 15; I am not certain.

Q. What is their average tonnage?-A. Perhaps 65 tons,

Q. Good class of vessels?-A. We think so.

Q. What kind of fishing are you engaged in?—A. Cod and mackerel fishing.

MACKEREL, WHERE TAKEN.

Q. During the last twenty years, where have you caught the bulk of your mackerel?-A. On this shore.

Q. On the American shore?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Outside the shore line?-A. Principally.

Q. As a rule, for the last ten years, the mackerel have been taken outside, have they not?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Fishing with seines, you do not regard it as safe, do you, to fish in shoal water or where there is a ragged bottom?-A. No, sir.

COD, WHERE TAKEN.

Q. And where have you pursued your cod fisheries?-A. At the Western Banks and Quereau.

Q. Off the English coast?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you fished every year off the Canadian coast for cod during the last twenty years?-A. Yes, sir.

BAIT.

Q. Where did you get your bait?-A. Here.

Q. What kind?-A. Clam bait.

Q. Did you ever buy any bait of them?—A. I think we have in two or three instances, perhaps.

Q. Did you buy any bait of them while the treaty of Washington was in force?— A. I think in two or three instances we did, on short trips.

Q. Is there any need of the Maine fishermen purchasing bait of the Canadians?— A. Not in our line of fishery.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. What is the privilege contained in the treaty, of fishing within 3 miles of the shore line, worth to American fishermen?—A. If you speak of State of Maine fishermen, it is worth very little.

CANADIAN PORT PRIVILEGES.

Q. Have you any occasions to go into their ports for anything?-A. No, sir. Q. If you have the right to go in for shelter in a storm, or for repairs, in case you have suffered damage, and to obtain water or purchase wood, is there any other one you desire?-A. No, sir.

FREE FISH.

Q. Is there anything you know of, in the interest of American fishermen, that the Canadians can give you that would be regarded by you as an equivalent for a free market for them?-A. No, sir.

BAIT.

Q. What kind of bait do you use?-A. Clam bait.

Q. And do not the Nova Scotians use the same?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many Nova Scotians have been into this port buying bait this season?—A. The State of Maine has furnished between 12,000 and 15,000 barrels of clam bait to Nova Scotia this year, and every year for the last number of years since they have increased their fleet.

Q. How many vessels would that supply?-A. On an average it takes about 50 barrels for the first trip, and about 30 to 40 on the second.

Q. Has there ever been any difficulty about the Canadian fishermen during the last year coming here and buying all the bait they pleased?-A. No, sir.

Q. Have they ever been interfered with?-A. No, sir.

Q. Has anybody ever refused to sell them bait?-A. No, sir.

Q. Have they ever been troubled about entrances and clearances, and things of that kind?-A. No, sir; it would be impossible for them, without bait from the State of Maine, to continue their cod-fishery business and the hand-line business, as we look at it; they have no grounds on their coast to produce bait; they depend upon the State of Maine for their bait, and have done so for the last fifteen or twenty years—that is, the State of Maine principally; they get some few from Massachusetts, but their principal supply is from the State of Maine.

Q. What kind of fish require fresh bait?-A. The halibut fishery and trawl fishery; that is, they formerly thought they could do better with fresh bait; but we have sent out trawlers this year, and they used salt bait entirely, and we found that we could have better success with salt bait than to waste time running for fresh bait.

Q. So that, on the whole, it is better for the fishermen of this country to provide themselves with salt bait before going, even though they are trawling?-A. Yes, sir; that is our experience here.

Q. What do they use for halibut, as a rule?-A. They use very little fresh bait usually, for they can't get it until they catch a few fish, and then they use the trash, as they call it.

Q. So that there is no need, even in fishing for halibut, to get fresh bait, squid, or anything? A. Not being acquainted with the halibut fishery, I am not able to state whether it is a necessity or not.

FRESH AND SALT FISH.

Q. What have you done with your mackerel that you have taken? Have you sold them fresh or salt?-A. Salt.

Q. Do you export any?-A. No, sir.

Q. Where is your market?-A. The market is all over this country.

Q. Have you dealt any in fresh fish?-A. No, sir,

Q. Do you know what effect the greatly increased consumption of fresh fish has had upon the salt-fish business?—A. I think it has decreased somewhat the consumption of salt fish.

EFFECT OF DUTY ON THE CONSUMER.

Q. There is a duty on salt fish, and practically none on fresh. In your opinion, who pays that duty?-A. I think it comes out of the Nova Scotia fishermen.

Q. According to your experience in the fish business, does the duty on fish increase the price to the consumer?-A. No, sir.

Q. If it affects anybody, it is somebody outside of Canada; is it the wholesaler and not the consumer?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what proportion the price paid the fishermen bears to the price paid by the consumer? If I bought a mackerel, for instance, to-day of the retailer,

know that they had any right to enter. But this year I think they were anticipating some trouble, and so far as I know I think they all entered. I was in Liverpool this spring, and my vessel lay at Brooklyn, the adjoining town, and we had to go to Liverpool to enter. We got in at night and lay until the next afternoon. I asked the collector how long I could lay, and he told me I could lay as long as I had a mind to. They didn't give me any harbor regulations; didn't tell me what I should do or not do. He didn't tell me I should come in immediately and enter the vessel as soon as I arrived there. He seemed to be a very nice man, quite like a gentleman; that was Mr. Dunlap, of Liverpool.

Senator SAULSBURY. The Liverpool the witness has been speaking of is not Liverpool in England?

Senator FRYE. No; Liverpool, Nova Scotia.

TESTIMONY OF T. C. LEWIS.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.

T. C. LEWIS sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Where do you live?-A. Portland.

Q. How long have you lived here?-A. Twenty-five years.

Q. What is your business?-A. Fish business.

Q. Owner of a vessel?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long have you been in the fish business?-A. About twenty years.

Q. In Portland?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many vessels are you interested in?—A. I think I am interested in 14 or 15; I am not certain.

Q. What is their average tonnage?-A. Perhaps 65 tons,

Q. Good class of vessels?-A. We think so.

Q. What kind of fishing are you engaged in?—A. Cod and mackerel fishing.

MACKEREL, WHERE TAKEN.

Q. During the last twenty years, where have you caught the bulk of your mackerel?-A. On this shore.

Q. On the American shore?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Outside the shore line?-A. Principally.

Q. As a rule, for the last ten years, the mackerel have been taken outside, have they not? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Fishing with seines, you do not regard it as safe, do you, to fish in shoal water or where there is a ragged bottom?-A. No, sir.

COD, WHERE TAKEN.

Q. And where have you pursued your cod fisheries?-A. At the Western Banks and Quereau.

Q. Off the English coast?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you fished every year off the Canadian coast for cod during the last twenty years?-A. Yes, sir.

BAIT.

Q. Where did you get your bait?-A. Here.

Q. What kind?-A. Clam bait.

Q. Did you ever buy any bait of them?-A. I think we have in two or three instances, perhaps.

Q. Did you buy any bait of them while the treaty of Washington was in force?— A. I think in two or three instances we did, on short trips.

Q. Is there any need of the Maine fishermen purchasing bait of the Canadians?— A. Not in our line of fishery.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. What is the privilege contained in the treaty, of fishing within 3 miles of the shore line, worth to American fishermen?-A. If you speak of State of Maine fishermen, it is worth very little.

CANADIAN PORT PRIVILEGES.

Q. Have you any occasions to go into their ports for anything?-A. No, sir. Q. If you have the right to go in for shelter in a storm, or for repairs, in case you have suffered damage, and to obtain water or purchase wood, is there any other one you desire?—A. No, sir.

FREE FISH.

Q. Is there anything you know of, in the interest of American fishermen, that the Canadians can give you that would be regarded by you as an equivalent for a free market for them?-A. No, sir.

BAIT.

Q. What kind of bait do you use?-A. Clam bait.

Q. And do not the Nova Scotians use the same?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many Nova Scotians have been into this port buying bait this season?—A. The State of Maine has furnished between 12,000 and 15,000 barrels of clam bait to Nova Scotia this year, and every year for the last number of years since they have increased their fleet.

Q. How many vessels would that supply?-A. On an average it takes about 50 barrels for the first trip, and about 30 to 40 on the second.

Q. Has there ever been any difficulty about the Canadian fishermen during the last year coming here and buying all the bait they pleased?-A. No, sir.

Q. Have they ever been interfered with?-A. No, sir.

Q. Has anybody ever refused to sell them bait?—A. No, sir.

Q. Have they ever been troubled about entrances and clearances, and things of that kind?-A. No, sir; it would be impossible for them, without bait from the State of Maine, to continue their cod-fishery business and the hand-line business, as we look at it; they have no grounds on their coast to produce bait; they depend upon the State of Maine for their bait, and have done so for the last fifteen or twenty years that is, the State of Maine principally; they get some few from Massachusetts, but their principal supply is from the State of Maine.

Q. What kind of fish require fresh bait?-A. The halibut fishery and trawl fishery; that is, they formerly thought they could do better with fresh bait; but we have sent out trawlers this year, and they used salt bait entirely, and we found that we could have better success with salt bait than to waste time running for fresh bait.

Q. So that, on the whole, it is better for the fishermen of this country to provide themselves with salt bait before going, even though they are trawling? A. Yes, sir; that is our experience here.

Q. What do they use for halibut, as a rule?-A. They use very little fresh bait usually, for they can't get it until they catch a few fish, and then they use the trash, as they call it.

Q. So that there is no need, even in fishing for halibut, to get fresh bait, squid, or anything? A. Not being acquainted with the halibut fishery, I am not able to state whether it is a necessity or not.

FRESH AND SALT FISH.

Q. What have you done with your mackerel that you have taken? Have you sold them fresh or salt?-A. Salt.

Q. Do you export any?-A. No, sir.

Q. Where is your market?-A. The market is all over this country.

Q. Have you dealt any in fresh fish?—A. No, sir,

Q. Do you know what effect the greatly increased consumption of fresh fish has had upon the salt-fish business?-A. I think it has decreased somewhat the consumption of salt fish.

EFFECT OF DUTY ON THE CONSUMER.

Q. There is a duty on salt fish, and practically none on fresh. In your opinion, who pays that duty?-A. I think it comes out of the Nova Scotia fishermen.

Q. According to your experience in the fish business, does the duty on fish increase the price to the consumer?-A. No, sir.

Q. If it affects anybody, it is somebody outside of Canada; is it the wholesaler and not the consumer?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know what proportion the price paid the fishermen bears to the price paid by the consumer? If I bought a mackerel, for instance, to-day of the retailer,

what proportion of the price of that mackerel does the fisherman get who caught it?--A. Well, on an average, I think he gets less than one-half.

Q. Does he get over two-fifths?-A. I don't think he would get over two-fifths on an average.

LAY.

Q. Do your fishermen work on the lay?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. All of them?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is that the custom among the Maine fishermen? A. Yes, sir. I think many of the vessels in the eastern portion of the State, at Bucksport and Lemoine, hire their men for the voyage.

NATIONALITY OF FISHERMEN.

Q. How many men do you employ in all?-A. Perhaps 400 or 500.

Q. What proportion of your sailors are American citizens; I do not say American born, but American citizens?—A. In our seining there is a large proportion of natu

ralized citizens.

Q, Four-fifths, or what?-A. I should say three-fourths.

Q. In your cod fisheries how would it be?-A. A smaller proportion; perhaps not more than half. But those men are coming this way to settle here; that is the tendency and result of their coming; they remain here.

Q. What would you look for as the result of an active, young, intelligent Canadian coming in here and engaging in the business? What is the general result? Does he become an American citizen?-A. He becomes an American citizen, yes.

Q. I suppose his ambition can not be gratified to command a vessel unless he does become an American citizen?-A. No, sir.

Q. What kind of sailors are these?-A. Good sailors.

CANADIAN COMPETITION.

Q. What is the reason you can not compete with Canada in fishing?-A. Well, they have cheaper vessels, cheaper outfits, and they are very much nearer the fishing grounds than we are, which makes quite a difference; and they live very differently on board their vessels.

Q. More cheaply?-A. More cheaply, and very much more different.

COMPENSATION OF FISHERMEN.

Q. Are not all their wages less than the wages paid in this country?-A. They know very little about wages. As I understand, they live a sort of serfdom; they go in their vessels, and they and their families are barely kept alive during the voyage.

Q. They receive store pay?-A. Yes, sir; they receive very little money; perhaps know very little about money any way. We pay our men in money as soon as the fish are sold and the voyage is settled.

Q. What have your men averaged for the fishery seasons for the last ten years for their pay?-A. I should think perhaps about $250.

Q. How long is the season?-A. It commences on the 1st of April and closes in October.

Q. What do the fishermen generally do in the interim?-A. Quite a portion of them follow the sea, some go winter fishing, some go into the woods to chop, and some remain at home.

PRICES OF FISH.

Q. Have you ever noticed that the fishery treaty of 1871 had any effect upon the prices of fish?-A. No, sir; I don't think it had any effect upon the prices of fish. Q. As a matter of fact, are not fish lower this year than last?-A. They are low; lower, I think, than they have been any time since I have been in the business. By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. Does that apply to mackerel fishing?-A. No, sir; cod fishing.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Mackerel have been higher this year on account of the scarcity?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Then it is not the duty which troubles you at all in this matter of fish; it is that the freedom from duty encourages the Canadians to increase their fleet and increase the number of fish they catch, and thus reduce the price of your mackerel?— A. Yes, sir. I don't know just the per cent, but I think their fleet has more than doubled in the last ten years.