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they could put them in ice here, and then send them in refrigerator cars and keep them all winter.

Q. Most of the vessels engaged in the fresh-fish business take ice?-A. Yes, sir. Q. And they preserve them wbere they catch them?-A. They do.

Q. I suppose a mackerel lying on deck without ice will spoil in a day, will it not?— A. Yes, on a hot day.

CANNED FISH.

Q. Do you have anything to do with the fresh-fish business?—A. Yes, sir; I can fresh fish; that is all.

Q. For what market?-A. For the United States market, all over the country.
Q. What are those--mackerel?—A. Mackerel; yes.
Q. Do you export any?-A. No, sir.
Q. Do you export any fish at all?—A. A very few salt mackerel.

CLOSE TERM.

Q. What is your opinion of a close term?-A. I think we ought to have a close term.

Q. Why?-A. To protect the fish; to keep from destroying them around New York. There is a certain season that they catch four times what can be consumed, and the extra ones are thrown back into the water dead. I think that prevents the rest of the country from getting those fish later on for salt fish.

BAIT.

Q. From your experience in the fishing business do you think that our fishermen from Maine on the Banks off the Canadian shores, the Grand Banks, and others, have any necessity for going into port to buy bait?-A. I should think not.

Q. What bait do they use?-A. Our fishermen here use salt clamg.

Q. They take them from here, do they not?-A. Yes, sir; and then we have weirs all along the coast from here down to Eastport; they could get their bait there. A number of these vessels, two or three that I know of, were seized, and they could have got their bait here just as well as not, and in that way have avoided seizure. If there had not been that report in the papers that they were allowed to go in there and get bait, they would not have gone in and been seized.

Q. In your opinion, what is the privilege of buying bait in Canadian ports worth to the Maine fishermen?-A. Not a cent.

Q. Whether or not you concur with Captain Whitten that, as a rule, the voyages would be more successful if they did not touch in Canadian ports at all for any reason?-A. I think they would.

Q. Is there anything that you know of that is desirable for our fishermen that Canada can give us?-A. Nothing.

Q. Do you know of anything that, so far as fish are concerned, either the catchers of fish, the owners of vessels, or the consumers of fish can receive from Canada as an equivalent for a free market?-A. No; I don't know of anything.

EFFECT OF DUTY ON THE CONSUMER.

Q. What is your opinion as to the effect of a duty upon the fish that the consumer actually receives?-A. I think that the receivers in Boston, where they have free fish, make more profit; it goes into the hands of the middlemen and the consumer gets nothing.

Q. So that if the duty has any effect, either Canada pays the duty herself and it is chargeable entirely to her, or it is a matter in which the wholesaler and fishermen alone are interested?-A. That is it.

Q. The retailer it does not affect?—A. It does not; bis prices are just the same.
Q. It is a small duty now, only averaging about 15 per cent?-A. That is about it.

Q. If the same duty were put on fresh fish, in your opinion, would it affect the market price as between the retailer and consumer?-A. I don't think it would; I think the middleman and retailer would make the profit every time. The price would be the same to the consumer.

Q. Who do you think at the present time pays that duty—the Canadians, or the men who buy the fish here?-A. I think the Canadians pay it.

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DECREASE OF AMERICAN FISHERIES,

Q. What is your knowledge as to the increase or decrease of the fishing interests of Maine during the pendency of the treaty of Washington?-A. I could not tell the Maine?--A. The result would be that they would do the fish business and we should have no fishing fleet.

Q. If you continued in the fishing business you would go over there?-A. I should go over there or go out of the business. I should have to go out if I stayed here.

COMPENSATION OF FISHERMEN.

Q. What are the average annual earnings of men in your business?--A. They haven't earned anything this year to amount to anything.

Q. Taking it right through for ten or twelve years, what do you think would be the average earnings?-A. One hundred and fifty dollars or $200 during a season.

Q. What is the season?—A. From the 15th of March until the 1st of November.

Q. What do these men do in the interim?-A. They go to sea, coasting, and go in foreign vessels, and some go to fishing.

CREWS.

Q. How many men do you have in all your vessels and boats?–A. Probably in vessels or boats some four hundred or five hundred.

Q. How many men will your mackerel vessels average?-A. They will average about sixteen men to a vessel.

Q. That would give you about three hundred for your mackerel fleet?-A. I should think about six hundred or seven hundred then. These small boats don't carry more than three to five men.

NATIONALITY OF FISHERMEN.

Q. What is the nationality of those men; that is, what proportion of them are American citizens?—A. I should say seven-eighths of my men are Americans.

Q. Maine men?—A. Most of them; yes, sir.

Q. According to your experience of those who come over here from Canada and engage in the fishery business, ultimately how many become American citizens? A. From the experience around here it is the whole of them.

Q. What kind of sailors are these that you employ?-A. First class in every respect.

COMPENSATION OF FISHERMEN.

Q. Do all of your men go on what is called “the lay?"-A. They do—that is, in the large vessels; in the small vessels they go differently.

Q. How in the small vessels?-A. They find their own food and give the vessel one-fifth, and they get all the fish. We furnish all the fittings, and they give me one-fifth of the product of the voyage.

PROFITS OF MACKEREL FISHING.

Q. For the last twelve years, during the life of the treaty of Washington, what has been the business of mackerel fishing as to profits?-A. Vessels that were kept inshore have been quite profitable on the average; but every vessel that I have sent to the Bay of St. Lawrence has been unprofitable and run in debt.

Q. Then you have no desire to send mackerel fishermen up into the bay of St. Lawrence?-A. No, sir; not if I can help it.

Q. Whether they fish inshore or offshore?-A. No, sir.

DUTY UPON ARTIFICIALLY FROZEN FISH.

Q. What is your opinion as to duty upon artificially frozen fish?—A. I think the middleman makes all the money, and the consumer pays just the same.

Q. Whether there is duty or not?—A. Whether there is duty or not; that is my opinion.

'Q. In your opinion should there be a duty on artificially frozen fish?—A. There should.

Q. Why?-A. Because an artificially frozen fish you can keep a long time and ship it into the interior, and salt it if you are a mind to, and then it becomes salt fish. It is clear that that could be done very easily.

FISH IN ICE.

Q. Is there any difficulty about freezing these fish so as to send them with perfect safety all over the country wherever railroads reach?—A. Not in refrigerator cars; they could put them in ice here, and then send them in refrigerator cars and keep them all winter.

Q. Most of the vessels engaged in the fresh-fish business take ice?-A. Yes, sir. Q. And they preserve them where they catch them?—A. They do.

Q. I suppose a mackerel lying on deck without ice will spoil in a day, will it not?A. Yes, on a hot day.

CANNED FISH.

Q. Do you have anything to do with the fresh-fish business?-A. Yes, sir; I can fresh fish; that is all.

Q. For what market?-A. For the United States market, all over the country.
Q. What are those mackerel?-A. Mackerel; yes.
Q. Do you export any?-A. No, sir.
Q. Do you export any fish at all?--A. A very few salt mackerel.

CLOSE TERM.

Q. What is your opinion of a close term?—A. I think we ought to have a close term.

Q. Why?-A. To protect the fish; to keep from destroying them around New York. There is a certain season that they catch four times what can be consumed, and the extra ones are thrown back into the water dead. I think that prevents the rest of the country from getting those fish later on for salt fish.

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BAIT.

Q. From your experience in the fishing business do you think that our fishermen from Maine on the Banks off the Canadian shores, the Grand Banks, and others, have any necessity for going into port to buy bait?-A. I should think not.

Q. What bait do they use?--A. Our fishermen here use salt clams.

Q. They take them from here, do they not?—A. Yes, sir; and then we have weirs all along the coast from here down to Eastport; they could get their bait there. A number of these vessels, two or three that I know of, were seized, and they could have got their bait here just as well as not, and in that way have avoided seizure. If there had not been that report in the papers that they were allowed to go in there and get bait, they would not have gone in and been seized.

Q. In your opinion, what is the privilege of buying bait in Canadian ports worth to the Maine fishermen?-A. Not a cent.

Q. Whether or not you concur with Captain Whitten that, as a rule, the voyages would be more successful if they did not touch in Canadian ports at all for any reason?-A.. I think they would.

Q. Is there anything that you know of that is desirable for our fisherinen that Canada can give us?–A. Nothing.

Q. Do you know of anything that, so far as fish are concerned, either the catchers of fish, the owners of vessels, or the consumers of fish can receive from Canada as an equivalent for a free market?-A. No; I don't know of anything.

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EFFECT OF DUTY ON THE CONSUMER.

Q. What is your opinion as to the effect of a duty upon the fish that the consumer actually receives?—A. I think that the receivers in Boston, where they have free fish, make more profit; it goes into the hands of the middlemen and the consumer gets nothing.

Q. So that if the duty has any effect, either Canada pays the duty herself and it is chargeable entirely to her, or it is a matter in which the wholesaler and fishermen alone are interested?-A. That is it.

Q. The retailer it does not affect?—A. It does not; bis prices are just the same.
Q. It is a small duty now, only averaging about 15 per cent?-A. That is about it.

Q. If the same duty were put on fresh fish, in your opinion, would it affect the market price as between the retailer and consumer?-A. I don't think it would; I think the middleman and retailer would make the profit every time. The price would be the same to the consumer.

Q. Who do you think at the present time pays that duty-the Canadians, or the men who buy the fish here?-A. I think the Canadians pay it.

DECREASE OF AMERICAN FISHERIES.

Q. What is your knowledge as to the increase or decrease of the fishing interests of Maine during the pendency of the treaty of Washington?-A. I could not tell the exact percentage, but there has been a great decrease. A great many vessels were formerly engaged in the fishing business, which, so far as that business is concerned, are extinct altogether.

Q. What has been the effect upon the fisheries of Canada?-A. They have increased their fleet tenfold, I should say.

Q: Nova Scotia increased very largely, did she not, a few years ago?-A. Yes, sir. I think one winter they built 80 first-class vessels; so I have been told.

SHIPBUILDING.

Q. What is the reason you can not compete with Canada in the fishing business?A. Because our vessels and their fittings cost more. There is a duty on everything that goes into the construction of a vessel, even to lumber; there is a duty on that, isn't there?

Senator Frye. I guess we don't pay much duty on lumber.
The Witness. On everything else there is a duty.

Q. Does not the difference in wages really make more difference than anything else?-A. That makes a great difference.

Q. In building your vessels do you not pay your ship carpenters greatly more than the Canadians pay their ship carpenters?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And in all your wages do you not pay more than Canadians?-A. Yes, sir.

WAGES.

Q. In curing the fish on our shore, do you not pay about $2 a day?-A. Yes, sir; about that.

Q. Are you aware that the Canadians cure their fish with the help of women and children, who work for very small wages?-A. I have heard that; yes, sir.

Q. And that they take their pay out of a store?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that they wait for their pay an indefinite length of time, while your fishermen get their as soon as the cargo is weighed out?--A. That is a fact.

Q. So that all those differences exist, and they are all in favor of Canada, are they not?-A. Yes, sir.

BAY OF CHALEUR.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. You say you had some vessels fishing for mackerel this year in the Bay of Chaleur?--A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have they had any difficulty?-A. No, sir.

Q. The British have not attempted to keep them out of the bay entirely?-A. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Q. Have they made more than one trip?-A. One of them has made two trips.

Q. Have all been back once?-A. Yes, sir; they are all at home now, but some came home that didn't have any fish at all; one vessel didn't have a barrel, and she went down there some three or four weeks ago.

Q. Do you know how far up the bay westward they went?-A. I do not. They did not go within the 3-mile limits, at all events.

Q. Is any one of your captains in town now who fished in the Bay of Chaleur ?A. No, sir.

Q. What time of the year were they there?-A. They were there about the 25th of July until the middle of September.

Q. Did they get good fares? -A. No, sir; two came home with full fares, and the others made broken voyages. The whole thing was unprofitable, and I guess that is the case with the majority of the fleet. Of course some few vessels have done very well, indeed; but taking the fleet all through there has been a loss.

Q. All those who fished up there anywhere, as well in the Gulf as in the ay of Chaleur, you mean?--A. Yes, sir. Taking the average there has been a large loss to the vessel owners.

COMMISSION MERCHANTS AND WHOLESALE DEALERS.

sume so.

By Senator SAULSBURY : Q. Has that loss resulted from the scarcity of fish in those waters?-A. Yes; I pre

Q. Are the fish that are sent here from Canada usually consigned to commission merchants for sale?-A. Yes, sir ; they are.

Q. Those commission merchants sell them upon commission to the jobbers?A. They sell on a commission, but I have heard that some of them get together, and the commission merchant sells to the wholesale dealer, and they divide the profits; that is what I have heard they do. Of course that all comes out of the Canadians, I suppose.

Q. Do you know that that is the case ?-A. No, I don't know; only that is what I have heard.

Q. You say the tariff is paid by the Canadians. If there was no tariff upon those Canadian fish, would not the commission merchant sell to jobber at a cheaper rate than he does now with the tariff ?--A. No, sir; because he would want a bigger profit.

Q. The question is whether he could not do it and get his regular commissions?A. It is not handled by commission merchants. These commission merchants sell to the wholesale fish dealers. They take the thing in hand and sell to the retailer; and by the time it gets to the consumer the price is just the same; it don't make any difference whether they pay $4 or $5; and you will find it só right straight through the country.

Q. I want to find out whether the commission merchant who sells to the wholesale dealer, if there were no tariff, would not be able to sell to the jobber, retaining his regular commissions, if he did a fair and legitimate business?-A. Yes, if they would do that; but we find by experience that when those fish get into the retailers’ hands and they are retailed there is no difference.

Q. I want to know whether or not, by doing a legitimate business, the commission merchant could not sell to the jobber at a lower rate than he does sell, and the jobber sell to the grocer at a lower rate than he does, if he did not have the duty to pay?

The WITNESS. Do you mean Canadian fish?
Senator SAULSBURY. Yes.

A. I presume the cost of their vessels is less than ours, and they can produce fish cheaper than we can because they don't pay any tariff on anything that goes into the construction of their vessels.

DUTY. Q. Has the tariff existing upon Canadian fish afforded any protection whatever to American fishermen? Would not their fish come just the same if there was no tariff?-A. No. Take last year and the year before; we had a large fleet of vessels fishing, and we could then sell No. 3 mackerel at $3.50 a barrel, and we caught them so plentifully that we could make money by delivering them to the country at that price. But the Canadians could not send that kind of fish here because they could not afford to pay the $2 duty; still our fishermen caught all that was necessary, and there were thousands of barrels left over, so that we can supply the markets of this country with fish for a long time; we have fleet enough to do it without asking anything of Nova Scotia in the way of supplies and opening our markets free for them. Take it for the last three years. Of course this year there has been a failure on this shore, and I think that is on account of their fishing at New York and destroying so many tish. Take it for the last ten years. Before this year we have had plenty of fish, and fish have been away down at their lowest point.

COOPERATIVE ORGANIZATIONS.

Q. With reference to the Southern fishery business, I understand you to say that you are in favor of a close season?—A. I am.

Q. Have the fishermen of New England any association among themselves by which they can regulate their trade?

The WITNESS. Any association?
Senator SaulSBURY. Yes.
A. Yes, sir; they have in New York what they call the Fishmongers' Association.

Q. Have they not an association at Gloucester, of which Mr. Steele is president, embracing the entire fishing interests of this section?

Senator FryE. Senator Saulsbury refers to the American Fishermen's Union.
A. Oh, yes.

SOUTHERN MACKEREL FISHING,

Q. (By Senator SAULSBURY.) I want to inquire if the fishermen, through their association, could not, by themselves, without any intervention of law, regulate that business? A. No; and I will tell you why: Because if one goes all want to go.

There are about a dozen or half dozen that can go south and make money fishing; but if they do there will be a hundred or one hundred and fifty all go after them.

Q. They are not all members of that association, I suppose?-A. Those are the fishermen themselves and the captains that want to go. There are many vessels

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