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IMPORTATIONS OF SALT AND FRESH FISH FROM CANADA.

Q. What proportion of the fish that arrive at this port are sent by the Canadians, or provinces?

The WITNESS. The proportion sent here?
Senator SatLSBURY. Yes.

A. Very few mackerel are sent here from the provinces, but quite a number of cod are brought in.

Q. I am speaking of fresh fish.-A. I think the amount of fresh fish brought in from there is very limited.

Q. What proportion do you suppose of the fresh fish that are sent to Boston and other different ports of New England are caught by Canadians and citizens of the provinces?-A. All I know is what I saw in the papers recently that they had been sending a great many fresh fish there; but probably it is a small proportion of what are caught, because we have a great many vessels here and in Boston that are freshfish vessels and do nothing else.

Q. What proportion of the salt mackerel sold at this port and the various ports of New England and other points are caught by the Canadians, compared with those caught by vessels belonging to this country?-A. I could state exactly if I had the statistics; my judgment would be perhaps 20 per cent.

Q. Has the present tariff upon Canadian fish tended to restrict the exportation of salt fish from Canada?-A. I think not. I think they have a certain quality that has to seek this market. Large codfish for packing purposes and export come here almost exclusively, you might say. Their small fish they ship directly to the West Indies.

Q. Then, the tariff has not furnished any protection to the fishermen of New England, as I understand?-A. Not particularly. It is no protection.

UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. You spoke of the relative cost of your vessels and of Canadian vessels, and said that Canadian vessels would not cost more than one-half of ours. What is the reason of that? Have you better vessels?-A. We have better vessels; we have vessels built of oak and hard wood.

Q. Take one of your vessels of really just about the same value as a Canadian vessel, and what would it cost here?-A. I don't exactly understand. Senator EDMUNDS. Built the same way and of the same material, I suppose.

Ι Senator SAULSBURY. I mean of just the same intrinsic value, say $5,000. If the Canadian vessel was worth $5,000, what kind of a vessel would $5,000 expended here build, of the same kind and out of the same material?

A. I don't know as I could answer that intelligently, because I don't know that I am sufficiently acquainted with the building of vessels.

DUTIES.

Q. You spoke of the duties upon articles entering into the construction of your vessels as one of the items of increased cost. Do you know about what duties would be paid upon the materials of a vessel that costs $10,000?–A. It is my impression that it is about 30 per cent upon the material, is it not?

Q. Upon such material as is dutiable, but all the material that goes into a vessel is not subject to duty.-A. No; not all.

Q. What articles that enter into the construction and equipment of a vessel are subject to duty?-A. The iron, I suppose, hemp, riggings, and sails.

Q. And anchors, I suppose.-A. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES A. DYER.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886.
CHARLES A. DYER sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. Where do you live?-A. Portland.
Q. What is your business?-A. Fish business.
Q. How long have you been in it?-A. About eighteen years.
Q. Do you own vessels?--A. I do.

Q. How many?-A. I own eighteen first-class vessels and a great many small ones-what you call shore vessels.

Q. How long have you been the owner of vessels?-A. For eighteen years.

Q. For the last ten or twelve years, what kind of business have your vessels been engaged in?-A. Mostly in the mackerel business.

Q. Any in the cod?-A. No, sir.

MACKEREL-WHERE TAKEN.

Q. During the last twelve or fifteen years, where have the bulk of your mackerel been taken?--A. On the American shore.

Q. How far out?--A. They have been taken inshore and offshore.

Q. What proportion ouside of the 3-mile line along our shore?-A. I could not say as to that.

Q. A very much greater proportion than inside?-A. I think so, on account of the shoal water.

Q. Do all your vessels use seines for mackerel?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you go south in March?-A. Yes, sir; I send four or five vessels. Q. How long do they pursue the mackerel-fishing business in the season?-A. They start about the 15th of March and they get back about the 1st of June.

VESSELS AND OUTFITS.

Q. What is the average tonnage of your mackerel vessels?-A. Seventy-five tons.
Q. What is their average cost ready for business?
The WITNESS. Taking seines and everything?
Senator FRYE. No; rigged for sea.
A. About $9,500 apiece.
Q. Are they built of white oak?—A. They are.
Q. They are substantially built, to stand the sea?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does the average outfit for a season cost?--A. From $1,200 to $1,500; some more and some less.

Q. That does not include the seines?-A. No; that is for the season, the whole season, not for the southern season, and includes provisions.

Q. What kind of provisions do you furnish your men?—A. Good; about the same as we have to home ourselves.

INSHORE FISHING.

Q. Have you during the last ten years engaged in catching mackerel in English waters?-A. Yes, sir; but very little; most of our vessels have fished on this shore.

Q. Any within the 3-mile inshore line of Canada?-A. No, sir; I think not. Q. Where have you been fishing this year?-A. I have had six vessels in the Bay of Chaleur, and the rest have been on this shore.

Q. Did those that were in the Bay of Chaleur fish inshore?-A. No, sir. Q. What has been the result of this season's operations?-A. It has been almost a complete failure on this shore, and about the same at the Bay of Chaleur.

Q. As a mackerel fisherman, do you have any necessity for your men going into Canadian ports?-A. No, sir.

Q. Do you desire them to go in there?-A. I do not.
Q. Is there any occasion to fish within the 3-mile shore line?-A. No.

BAIT.

Q. In your opinion, based on your eighteen years' experience in the mackerel fishery, is the privilege of fishing within the 3-mile shore line of the Canadian coast of any value?-A. No, sir.

Q. Is the privilege of buying bait worth anything to you?-A. No, sir.

FREE FISH AND DUTIES.

Q. Do you know of anything in the fishery business that you desire of Canada, and which she can give you, that would be regarded by you as an equivalent for free markets for her in this country?-A. Nothing:

Q. What have you to say about the duty on fish?-A. I think if Canada is given free fish we shall have to give up the business to Canada, and she will have a monopoly of it.

Q. Suppose a treaty was made with ('anadla by which, for fifteen years, she could have free entry of our market, what would be the result upon the fishermen of

S. Doc. 231, pt 5—-51

IMPORTATIONS OF SALT AND FRESH FISH FROM CANADA.

Q. What proportion of the fish that arrive at this port are sent by the Canadians, or provinces?

The Witness. The proportion sent here?
Senator SAULSBURY. Yes.

A. Very few mackerel are sent here from the provinces, but quite a number of cod are brought in.

Q. I am speaking of fresh fish.-A. I think the amount of fresh fish brought in from there is very limited.

Q. What proportion do you suppose of the fresh fish that are sent to Boston and other different ports of New England are caught by Canadians and citizens of the provinces?-A. All I know is what I saw in the papers recently that they had been sending a great many fresh fish there; but probably it is a small proportion of what are caught, because we have a great many vessels here and in Boston that are freshfish vessels and do nothing else.

Q. What proportion of the salt mackerel sold at this port and the various ports of New England and other points are caught by the Canadians, compared with those caught by vessels belonging to this country?-A. I could state exactly if I had the statistics; my judgment would be perhaps 20 per cent.

Q. Has the present tariff upon Canadian fish tended to restrict the exportation of salt fish from Canada?-A. I think not. I think they have a certain quality that has to seek this market. Large cod fish for packing purposes and export come here almost exclusively, you might say. Their small fish they ship directly to the West Indies.

Q. Then, the tariff has not furnished any protection to the fishermen of New England, as I understand?-A. Not particularly. It is no protection.

UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. You spoke of the relative cost of your vessels and of Canadian vessels, and said that Canadian vessels would not cost more than one-half of ours. What is the reason of that? Have you better vessels?-A. We have better vessels; we have vessels built of oak and hard wood.

Q. Take one of your vessels of really just about the same value as a Canadian vessel, and what would it cost here?-A. I don't exactly understand.

Senator Edmunds. Built the same way and of the same material, I suppose.

Senator SAULSBURY. I mean of just the same intrinsic value, say $5,000. If the Canadian vessel was worth $5,000, what kind of a vessel would $5,000 expended here build, of the same kind and out of the same material?

A. I don't know as I could answer that intelligently, because I don't know that I am sufficiently acquainted with the building of vessels.

DUTIES.

Q. You spoke of the duties upon articles entering into the construction of your vessels as one of the items of increased cost. Do you know about what duties would be paid upon the materials of a vessel that costs $10,000?–A. It is my impression that it is about 30 per cent upon the material, is it not?

Q. Upon such material as is dutiable, but all the material that goes into a vessel is not subject to duty.-A. No; not all.

Q. What articles that enter into the construction and equipment of a vessel are subject to duty?–A. The iron, I suppose, hemp, riggings, and sails. Q. And anchors, I suppose.-A. Yes, sir.

Ι

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES A. DYER.

PORTLAND, ME., October 6, 1886. CHARLES A. DYER Sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. Where do you live?-A. Portland,
Q. What is your business?-A. Fish business.
Q. Ilow long bave you been in it?-A. About eighteen years.
Q. Do you own vessels?-A. I do.

Q. How many?-A. I own eighteen ţrst-class vessels and a great many small ones—what you call shore vessels.

Q. How long have you been the owner of vessels?-A. For eighteen years.

Q. For the last ten or twelve years, what kind of business have your vessels been engaged in?-A. Mostly in the mackerel business.

Q. Any in the cod?-A. No, sir.

MACKEREL WHERE TAKEN.

Q. During the last twelve or fifteen years, where have the bulk of your mackerel been taken?--A. On the American shore.

Q. How far out?—A. They have been taken inshore and offshore.

Q. What proportion ouside of the 3-mile line along our shore?-A. I could not say as to that.

Q. A very much greater proportion than inside?-A. I think so, on account of the shoal water.

Q. Do all your vessels use seines for mackerel?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you go south in March?—A. Yes, sir; I send four or five vessels. Q. How long do they pursue the mackerel-fishing business in the season?-A. They start about the 15th of March and they get back about the 1st of June.

VESSELS AND OUTFITS.

Q. What is the average tonnage of your mackerel vessels?-A. Seventy-five tons.
Q. What is their average cost ready for business?
The Witness. Taking seines and everything?
Senator FRYE. No; rigged for sea.
A. About $9,500 apiece.
Q. Are they built of white oak?—A. They are.
Q. They are substantially built, to stand the sea?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does the average outfit for a season cost?-A. From $1,200 to $1,500; some more and some less.

Q. That does not include the seines?-A. No; that is for the season, the whole season, not for the southern season, and includes provisions.

Q. What kind of provisions do you furnish your men?-A. Good; about the same as we have to home ourselves.

INSHORE FISHING.

Q. Have you during the last ten years engaged in catching mackerel in English waters?-A. Yes, sir; but very little; most of our vessels have fished on this shore.

Q. Any within the 3-mile inshore line of Canada?-A. No, sir; I think not.

Q. Where have you been fishing this year?-A. I have had six vessels in the Bay of Chaleur, and the rest have been on this shore.

Q. Did those that were in the Bay of Chaleur fish inshore?-A. No, sir.

Q. What has been the result of this season's operations?-A. It has been almost a complete failure on this shore, and about the same at the Bay of Chaleur.

Q. As a mackerel fisherman, do you have any necessity for your men going into
Canadian ports?-A. No, sir.

Q. Do you desire them to go in there?-A. I do not.
Q. Is there any occasion to fish within the 3-mile shore line?-A. No.

BAIT.

Q. In your opinion, based on your eighteen years' experience in the mackerel fishery, is the privilege of fishing within the 3-mile shore line of the Canadian coast of any value?--A. No, sir.

Q. Is the privilege of buying bait worth anything to you?-A. No, sir.

FREE FISH AND DUTIES.

Q. Do you know of anything in the fishery business that you desire of Canada, and which she can give you, that would be regarded by you as an equivalent for free markets for her in this country?-A. Nothing:

Q. What have you to say about the duty on fish?-A. I think if Canada is given free fish we shall have to give up the business to Canada, and she will have a monopoly of it.

Q. Suppose a treaty was made with Canada by which, for fifteen years, she could have free entry of our market, what would be the result upon the fishermen of

S. Doc. 231, pt 5—-51

Maine?—A. The result would be that they would do the fish business and we should have no fishing fleet.

Q. If you continued in the fishing business you would go over there?-A. I should go over there or go out of the business. I should have to go out if I stayed here.

COMPENSATION OF FISHERMEN.

Q. What are the average annual earnings of men in your business?-A. They haven't earned anything this year to amount to anything.

Q. Taking it right through for ten or twelve years, what do you think would be the average earnings?-A. One hundred and fifty dollars or $200 during a season.

Q. What is the season?-A. From the 15th of March until the 1st of November.

Q. What do these men do in the interim?-A. They go to sea, coasting, and go in foreign vessels, and some go to fishing.

CREWS.

Q. How many men do you have in all your vessels and boats?-A. Probably in vessels or boats some four hundred or five hundred.

Q. How many men will your mackerel vessels average?-A. They will average about sixteen men to a vessel.

Q. That would give you about three hundred for your mackerel fleet?-A. I should think about six hundred or seven hundred then. These small boats don't carry more than three to five men.

NATIONALITY OF FISHERMEN.

Q. What is the nationality of those men; that is, what proportion of them are American citizens?--A. I should say seven-eighths of my men are Americans.

Q. Maine men?-A. Most of them; yes, sir.

Q. According to your experience of those who come over here from Canada and engage in the fishery business, ultimately how many become American citizens?A. From the experience around here it is the whole of them.

Q. What kind of sailors are these that you employ?-A. First class in every respect.

COMPENSATION OF FISHERMEN.

Q. Do all of your men go on what is called “the lay?"-A. They do—that is, in the large vessels; in the small vessels they go differently.

Q. How in the small vessels?–A. They find their own food and give the vessel one-fifth, and they get all the fish. We furnish all the fittings, and they give me one-fifth of the product of the voyage.

PROFITS OF MACKEREL FISHING.

Q. For the last twelve years, during the life of the treaty of Washington, what has been the business of mackerel fishing as to profits?-A. Vessels that were kept inshore have been quite profitable on the average; but every vessel that I have sent to the Bay of St. Lawrence has been unprofitable and run in debt.

Q. Then you have no desire to send mackerel fishermen up into the bay of St. Lawrence?-A. No, sir; not if I can help it.

Q. Whether they fish inshore or offshore?-A. No, sir.

DUTY UPON ARTIFICIALLY FROZEN FISH,

Q. What is your opinion as to duty upon artificially frozen fish?--A. I think the middleman makes all the money, and the consumer pays just the same.

Q. Whether there is duty or not?—A. Whether there is duty or not; that is my opinion.

Q. In your opinion should there be a duty on artificially frozen fish?-A. There should.

Q. Why?-A. Because an artificially frozen fish you can keep a long time and ship it into the interior, and salt it if you are a mind to, and then it becomes salt fish. It is clear that that could be done very easily.

FISH IN ICE.

Q. Is there any difficulty about freezing these fish so as to send them with perfect safety all over the country wherever railroads reach?—A. Not in refrigerator cars;

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