it has not been an expensive business for us. It takes a great deal of time, and it causes a delay sometimes of three weeks, and sometimes they don't get bait; and they spend longer time than they need to sometimes, and we don't see that they get any more fish than those vessels that lie on the bank and fish with other bait. So that we had about come to the conclusion before the expiration of this treaty that it was much better for our vessels to avoid going in for fresh bait. We think there is no necessity for it whatever.

BAIT.

Q. Do you get any squid on the Grand Banks?-A. Yes, sir; but at certain times the squid fail. A vessel arrived here a few days ago that didn't take any bait with her when she sailed from here, but she caught her squid there and caught her fish, and made a very short trip and a very good one; she made no delay at all.

Q. Is it usual for your vessels to go out without any bait at all?-A. No; but this vessel relied on squid and found plenty of them.

Q. She took that chance?-A. Yes, sir. The bait question would settle itself very quickly. We could very soon find a way to bait our vessels without any Canadian help whatever.

DUTY.

Q. Was there any rise in prices when the duty went on on the 1st of July, 1885, as a consequence of the expiration of the treaty?-A. There was a decline immediately and has been a gradual decline from that time to the present. The price of fish is so low now that if we should allow Canadian fish to come in free our vessels would not sail. The price is very low,

Q. We must hope that this is exceptional. What we want to get at is a broader period of time, so as to calculate the average.-A. There has been a very low price, for codfish especially, ever since the abrogation of the treaty, extremely low. Mackerel are very high this year, but that is easily accounted for. The catch of mackerel to date is 56,000 barrels against, I think it was, 280,000 barrels last year and 330,000 barrels the year previous. So that accounts for the prices of mackerel.

COST OF VESSELS AND OUTFIT.

Q. How many vessels are you connected with in one way and another?-A. We only own ten. Of course, we handle the fish of a great many others; we buy a great many fish.

Q. Take those vessels that you own to begin with, what is their cost?

The WITNESS. What would be their cost to-day?

Senator EDMUNDS. No; I mean the cost of building them and fitting them out. A. The vessels would cost about $7,500 to $8,000, and it would cost about $2,500 more to fit them.

Q. They are about 75-ton vessels on an average?-A. About that, yes.

CREWS AND THEIR NATIONALITY.

Q. What is the composition of their crews and about how many men to a vessel?A. They will average fourteen.

Q. What is the nationality of the crews?-A. Of course, I have no statistics. Q. I mean your general idea; you see the men more or less.-A. I should think they were about one-half native born and about one-fourth naturalized.

Q. And the other one-fourth foreigners of one sort and another?-A. Yes, sir. Q. Of what nationality are the foreigners mostly?-A. We have quite a large number of Scandinavians; then we have quite a proportion from the Dominion, all along from Newfoundland up; and there are a few, not so many, Portuguese who come to the Georges fisheries. The south of Europe furnishes them.

Q. The Scandinavians have their homes here?-A. Yes, sir. The Dominion people also have homes here; it is the younger and more adventurous of them who come here, because they can have the handling of their own money and have a good time, but part of the time they go back home in the winter. It is only a question of a very few years before they are permanent citizens here. Of course no man can go as master until he is naturalized, so that is a constant incentive to them to become naturalized. And taking those that are masters, with those who want to become masters and have been masters, it makes a very large number of American citizens.

Q. Like candidates for office?-A. Yes, sir. So that a large proportion become naturalized citizens in a short time.

COMPENSATION OF CANADIAN FISHERMEN.

Q. Do you know how the business is conducted in the Dominion between the fishermen and the people who employ them?-A. I know in a general way. The bankers especially come in and land their fish; the fish are not weighed as they are taken out and cured; the men keep fishing the whole season, and their families keep drawing from the stores. So that before those fish are marketed and the voyage is ready to be settled the men are ready to start again, and by that time the store account has used up pretty much everything the men have earned.

Q. So that in substance they get store pay only?-A. Yes. sir. I suppose they get money enough to pay for what they actually have to have in the way of fuel and a few things like that, but practically they take the whole of it from the store. Here the codfish are landed and weighed in two hours from the time they are landed, and immediately every man goes in and takes his check.

COMPENSATION OF AMERICAN FISHERMEN.

Q. And about what do your crews make per year, taking a ten years' average?— A. The different kinds of fish share a little differently, but I should think it might make an average of $300 for the twelve months.

EXPORTATION OF FISH TO CANADA.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. Where do you sell your fish principally, in this market?-A. No, sir. We buy largely outside. Our shipping business is a prominent feature of our trade.

Q. Do you sell to other countries?-A. No, sir; we market in the United States. Q. Do you ship none to Canada?-A. We never ship any to Canada. There is a little trade with the border towns, but it is very small, and we have never done any of it.

COMPARATIVE COST OF AMERICAN AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. You have been in this business so long I would like for you to state a little more in detail the elements of the cost of Canadian outfits, wages, the profit to be made out of it by the Canadian fishermen, the cost of vessels, wages, supplies, taxes, etc., as compared with the like elements on our side. Make, in as condensed a way as you can, a comparative statement of the conditions that enter into that part of the problem.-A. Of course the first item is the cost of the vessel itself, which is about onethird less in Canada than here. Then there is a very large proportion of everything that we put on board the vessel that is dutiable. We did have a drawback on our salt. Of course in a series of years the duty makes a large difference in the expense of running the business. Then their system with their men makes a great difference. Q. Take the articles that enter into shipbuilding-your cordage or manila; is that rope made in this country?-A. Yes, sir; it is manufactured here, but the raw material is imported with quite a large duty.

Senator EDMUNDS. If it is real manila hemp it must be.

The WITNESS. We use the very best manila.

Q. The iron, bolts, and all that sort of thing are made here?-A. Yes, sir.

DUTY.

Q. When you speak of duties you assume that the price is increased on account of there being a duty on iron and iron manufactures? A. Yes, sir.

Q. But if the manufacture of iron in this country had reached a point where the market was fully supplied or oversupplied, as it is with codfish, then why would not the duty drop out of consideration with reference to fish?-A. It would. It is only a question whether we have to pay more. The theory of the thing I don't care for. Q. If you were to-day about to fit out a ship, and sent to Liverpool or London to buy your cordage, and there was no duty on it, how much less could you get it for than you can now?-A. I really couldn't tell you the difference. I know about what the duty is, and we simply claim that if the average duty on what we use is to be taken we feel that we ought to be classed with the rest in a general way.

Q. That I agree to entirely, but I am getting at the statistical fact of the prices. Now take the bolts, spikes, anchors, and everything that enters into the ironwork of a vessel. Do you know whether the same sort of things and of the same quality could be bought any cheaper in London than they can in New York or Philadelphia?A. There are some things I don't know and some I do. For instance, I know a few

years ago we bought our fishhooks—not a very large item in amount-from Scotland. I think the duty was then about 45 per cent ad valorem, and yet the Scotchmen shipped them over to us, and they cost us duty paid less than the price we could buy them for here. But in the articles you mention-a good many of them—I am not able to say whether the duty makes much difference in the price or not.

Q. We make fishhooks, do we not?-A. We made them then, but now we have stopped the importation.

Q. Now you can go. on with what you were saying about the other items of comparison.

ELEMENTS OF INCREASED COST OF AMERICAN VESSELS.

A. The difference between our methods and theirs, I think, makes more difference in the cost than the duties. If we had the privilege of taking our crews and letting them live from our outfitting stores for six months of the year until the account was about to be squared, selling goods to them at our own prices and all that sort of thing, we could carry on that sort of business and let the vessels lose and still have a profit on our whole business.

Then, again, the local taxes. Here in Gloucester we have a very heavy tax-about 2 per cent-whereas I think I am correct in saying that the Canadians do not tax their vessels at all.

I think since the duty went into effect the total amount of their bounties is in the vicinity of $2,000,000. The bounty is not very large per vessel, but still in the aggregate $2,000,000 in a series of years is a great help to a small industry. France gives 10 francs on every quintal exported.

TAXES.

Q. The taxes paid here go to support schools and all the departments of a wellordered city-water, police, etc.-which the families of your crews who live here enjoy? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And your school money is entirely raised on property?-A. Entirely. It makes it very expensive, because in a town like Gloucester, with a large population who pay no taxes and who have a large number of children, the school tax is high and becomes a very important matter.

Q. And that in the provinces is not a heavy tax at all?—A. I think they do not tax their vessels there at all.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. You say your taxes are 2 per cent on the cost of the vessel?-A. Yes, sir; more than that now. I don't think our fleet would sell to-day for what they tax it; I know it wouldn't.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. That is, for the assessed value?-A. For the assessed value.

Senator SAULSBURY. In my State a vessel is not taxed at all for State, county, or municipal purposes. Why can not the people of Gloucester be relieved from it as well as the people of Delaware? I know one gentleman who holds as part owner between thirty and forty vessels and has several hundred thousand dollars invested in coasting vessels, and he pays no State or county taxes upon those vessels.

Senator EDMUNDS. If the taxes are taken off vessels here, the other people who live in this town and subsist upon this fishing industry will have to raise just as much money, and the taxes would only have to be levied on something else.

Senator SAULSBURY. I think property of every character and description, investments in real estate, vessels, or bonds and mortgages, ought to be taxed.

The WITNESS. The valuation of the town is low. Gloucester is a poor town, and the proportion of vessel property is of course exceedingly large as compared with the other property. If they should not tax vessels no one could afford to live in the town, the taxes would be so exorbitant on everything else. The tax is now $19 on $1,000, I think, and if they were to take out the $3,000,000 of vessel property it would make a very exorbitant tax on everything else.

Q. (By Senator EDMUNDS.) I suppose these captains and their crews live in houses that they own, on land that they own, and all the taxes taken off personal property would fall back on real property, so that after all they would have to pay the taxes?— A. Yes, sir.

Q. About what proportion of your local taxation is for school purposes?-A. I think about one-third.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. JORDAN.

GLOUCESTER, MASS., October 5, 1886.

WILLIAM H. JORDAN Sworn and examined.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What is your age?-A. Forty.

Q. Residence?-A. Gloucester.

Q. Occupation?-A. Fishing and vessel owner.

Q. Owner of how many vessels?-A. Five.

Q. How long have you been in the fishing business?-A. I have been in the business, as partner, nineteen years.

Q. Do you deal and operate in all classes of fish?—A. Yes, sir.

COST OF FISHING VESSELS.

Q. What do these fishing vessels cost?-A. They average in cost about $7,300 to $8,300 or $8,500.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. That is about a hundred-ton vessel?-A. That is 100 tons, old measurement. By the new measurement (the Government measurement) they run from 65 to 95 and 100 tons, but more of them would be in the vicinity of 80 tons; that would be about the average.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

COST OF OUTFIT.

Q. About what is the average cost of outfit?-A. For seining business, perhaps about $2,500, and for cod fishing and other parts of the business from $1,500 to $1,800 and $2,000.

Q. About how many men are carried on those vessels?-A. My vessels average about 15 men each.

NATIONALITY OF FISHERMEN.

Q. Of what nationality are these men?-A. I should think two-thirds of them, or in that vicinity, are American citizens, and perhaps 15 per cent of them are resident citizens.

Q. People who reside here, but are not naturalized?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the rest are floating?-A. Yes, sir; foreigners.

CODFISH AND BAIT.

Q Where do your vessels go for codfish?-A. They fish mostly the Grand Banks and the Georges Banks.

Q. Where do they get their bait?-A. They get their bait for Georges fishing along the American coast, and this year all of them have got it here.

Q. How was it during the ten years of the treaty of 1870-71?-A. A small proportion of the Grand Banks trawlers got it from Canadian ports.

Q. Is there any difficulty in American vessels, now that they are excluded, in fact, whether of right or not, from going into provincial ports to get bait, supplying themselves with bait otherwise?-A. No, sir. I have had less delay this year than on the average. Frequently the Grand Banks vessels are supplied with bait three to six weeks at a time.

Q. Along the Canadian shores when they were at liberty to do that?-A. Yes, sir. I think if the vessels made arrangements to take the bait on their own shores it would benefit an industry that has has not been fully developed.

Q. And result in equally successful catches of fish? A. Yes, sir; and with much less delay. Then, again, the people fishing along our shores, those that have traps and weirs, are disposed to do all they can to make money; but among the Canadians a vessel will be allowed to lie a week without bait. The Canadians seem indifferent, and if they don't feel like fishing they won't.

PROVISIONS.

Q. Just tell us what is your outfit of provisions for a vessel going to the Grand Banks on a codfish trip, for instance. What is put on board for the food of the crew? A. Flour, beef, pork, lard, butter, sugar, molasses, and canned goods of various kinds.

Q. Canned vegetables, you mean?-A. Canned vegetables somewhat. Of course, different vessels vary in that respect to some extent; some carry prunes, most of them dried apples and condensed milk; in fact, almost all kinds of food one would have at home, only in preserved form. They also carry cabbages.

Q. What is the quality of the food that is put on?-A. The quality is good; the quality of the flour is the best; as to sugar, we sometimes send white sugar, but more frequently high-grade yellow. The molasses is of good quality, not the best always; and butter is of good quality.

Q. Pork?-A. Pork is of the best quality; we send mostly clear pork and pork shoulders, and the very best grade of plate beef we can buy; we also send pigs' feet and tripe somewhat.

Q. So that the whole outfit of food is thoroughly good?-A. Yes, sir.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Coffee and tea?-A. Yes, sir; pure coffee, and a nice quality of tea that sells for about 40 to 45 cents a pound. Strictly pure coffee and extracts and spices of all kinds.

CODFISH.

Q. In your codfish catching I suppose no question is ever raised in respect to the three-mile line?-A. No, sir.

Q. They are always caught offshore?-A. Yes, sir.

PORT PRIVILEGES.

Q. Then as to your cod-fishing vessels, is it of any practical consequence to you gentlemen engaged in this business, or to your crews, to have the right to go into their ports except for shelter and for wood and water?-A. It is not.

MACKEREL.

Q. Now we will come to the mackerel business. Where have your vessels during the last ten or fifteen years caught their mackerel?--A. During the last ten or fifteen years they have caught their mackerel almost entirely upon the American shores. Last year I had 5 to 8 or possibly 10 per cent taken in Canadian waters outside the three-mile limit, and last year mackerel were taken in the Canadian waters inside the three-mile limit.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. State your knowledge and information as to the proportion of mackerel taken inside the three-mile line.

The WITNESS. In ordinary years?

Senator FRYE. Yes, take it for fifteen years together.

A. The proportion, in my estimation, would certainly not be over 5 per cent with the large vessels, and I should think even less than that.

Q. Take the whole of the Gloucester mackerel fleet, and take it for ten or fifteen years together.-A. The average taken inside the three-mile limit is not 5 per cent of the whole, taking the whole American fleet.

Q. It was so even during the time when they had the right to go inshore?-A. Yes, sir. It is very seldom that they are able to get the condition of bottom such that they can fish inside with safety. It has been tried, and they almost invariably tear their seines.

Q. How is it in respect to the location of the larger schools of fish; are they generally found more than 3 miles offshore?-A. Yes, sir; there are certain banks or places where they are located where they seem to meet more of them than they do inshore.

CASE OF THE GOLDEN HIND.

Q. Have any of your mackerel vessels been disturbed this year?-A. Yes, sir. The Golden Hind was fishing in the North Bay and discovered that their water was about out. They had less than a barrel left, and they attempted to go in to replenish their water. At the entrance to the Bay of Chaleur they were met by one of the Canadian cutters-I think the one commanded by Captain Quigley, I am not sure— and the cutter forbade him to enter the Bay. The Hind informed the cutter that she wished to get water, but Captain Quigley said that he would not allow her to enter, and gave the Hind the written instructions of the Canadian Government, and indorsed