Q. Do you think, then, that the Canadians, under the item in the tariff act, "Fish, fresh for immediate consumption," should be permitted to send in all these frozen fish? A. I don't suppose they ought, but it appears that they have been.

CURING OF FRESH FISH AFTER ENTRY.

Q. Suppose a cargo of frozen halibut or any other kind of fish was brought here and landed as "Fish, fresh, for immediate consumption," the wholesaler who buys them transships them to Boston or New York, does he not?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there any way for the custom-house officer here to follow them in order to see that they are not cured afterwards?-A. There is a way to follow them, but certainly I have never known anything of that kind to transpire.

Q. They can, and undoubtedly do, cure a great many of these fish that are so entered?-A. I have not the slightest doubt of it.

Q. If the market is very strong they will not lose them?-A. No, sir; they cure them. The fish can be brought in fresh to-day and salted to-morrow, and the public know nothing about it.

EFFECT OF THE TREATY OF 1870-71.

Q. What has been the effect of the treaty of 1870-71 upon the Canadian fisheries?— A. I haven't had much experience down there in the last few years; I have only been there one or two years.

Q. What effect has it had upon our business here?—A. You can see that every day without asking the question.

Q. What is the effect?-A. The amount of it is that we get in surplus fish here in town that we can't dispose of.

Q. Is it driving your fishermen out of the business?-A. Certainly; lots of them. Q. How large is your fleet here now?-A. I don't know how large it is.

DUTY.

Q. What do you want of the United States Government so far as fisheries are concerned?-A. I should like to add to the duty.

Q. What do you say the duty ought to be?-A. I am not prepared to say what I think it ought to be, but I think it ought to be enough to keep the Canadian fish out and give the American fishermen a chance to live.

Q. Can the American people supply the American market?-A. I presume they can; they usually did before Canada got a fleet of fishermen of her own.

Q. In your opinion, should there be a duty on frozen fish? A. Yes, sir; there should be.

Q. Do you know anything about the retail market?-A. I know something about it.

EFFECT OF DUTY UPON THE CONSUMER.

Q. The fishermen sell to the wholesaler?-A. Usually, yes.

Q. And the wholesaler to the jobber. Now, what is the difference between the price the fisherman receives for his fish and what the consumer pays for his?—A. That is a pretty hard question for me to answer, because it varies so much; of course there is some considerable difference; at times there is a big difference, and then at other times there may be less.

Q. Does the fisherman average more than two-thirds of the price paid by the consumer?-A. Usually not, I think. That is putting it a little small, perhaps; I should think they did a little better than that.

Q. From your experience, does the duty on fish affect the price of fish to the consumer; I do not mean to the wholesaler?-A. Yes; it does.

Q. How?-A. I don't know as it does to the consumer, either.

Q. If there is any effect, is it not between the wholesaler and the fisherman?-A. That is just what it is usually; to the consumer I don't know as it makes any difference.

CLOSE TIME.

Q. What do you say about close time for mackerel?-A. I think it would be a good plan to close it up to the 1st of June, or better still, I think, to the 1st of July.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. State your grounds for thinking so.-A. On account of the scarcity of fish, which results from catching so many fish early in the season, and catching them before they have a chance to spawn.

Q. That would be a round trip?-A. A round trip; that could be done easily in fourteen days.

Q. In an average year of, say twenty years back, how many voyages would the Gloucester schooners be able to make up there and back?-A. It is pretty hard to get at the average, because they differ so much. Often they make three voyages from here to the Gulf of St. Lawrence in a sailing vessel and back again.

Q. And sometimes, I suppose, they do not make more than one? A. Yes, sir. I have made four by landing.

FREE FISH.

Q. I will ask you the same question that Mr. Frye has asked the other witnesses: Is there anything in the fishery way that you would consider to be an equivalent that Canada could give us for giving her the right to market both salt and fresh fish free into our ports?-A. No.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. What is the effect of a free market upon our fisheries?-A. As far as I understand it, we certainly would be obliged to haul out of the business in a very short time; that would be the case, I think, with every one that follows it here in this part of the country.

Q. In your opinion, then, in ten or fifteen years' time it would destroy the fishery trade of our country?-A. Wholly.

Q. Would you go over there?-A. We should be obliged to if we wanted to continue in the fishing business.

RELATIVE COST OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. Why can we not compete with them?-A. It is impossible for us to do it on account of the difference between our systems of producing vessels and running them.

Q. Such as what?-A. They have a very different method of running them, and they fit them out differently, and the crews don't expect the same living.

Q. How much more should you say it would cost to build our vessels than theirs?— A. A new vessel of a hundred tons can be built there ready for sea at a cost of $6,300, and one of ours of the same tonnage would surely cost $10,000.

OUTFITS AND COST OF LIVING.

Q. How about outfits?-A. They live differently. We get the best there is in the market, in the shape of food of all kinds, to put aboard our vessels, but they go under a different system: they can eat a barrel of herring with a relish at which our fishermen would turn up their noses. Our outfit costs nearly one-half more. They get flour very much cheaper, and they live so differently in every way. We use a barrel of beef every twenty days, and they would take two months in consuming it; they use it only once a day, when we have it on the table all the time. They don't have any luxuries at all.

Q. On the whole, how much more expensive should you say would be the whole cost of outfit and everything else for an American vessel than for a Canadian?-A. Fully one-third more, according to my judgment.

Q. Do they have any advantage of you in getting their mackerel to market more quickly?-A. That must be an advantage. They have not commenced, but, so far as my knowledge goes, another season they will supply our market nearly altogether.

INCREASE OF FRESH-FISH BUSINESS.

Q. What do you know, if anything, about the increase of the fresh-fish market in this country in the last ten years?-A. I know it has increased more than 50 per cent in the last ten years; I have been connected with it for the last fifteen years.

Q. What effect has that had upon the salt-fish market?-A. It has reduced it, of

course.

Q. Is there a constant and growing increase in the use of fresh fish in this country?— A. Yes; there is.

Q. Caused, I suppose, by the increased convenience in the transportation of fresh fish? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You can distribute fresh fish now all over the country by rail?-A. Yes, sir; whereas a few years ago there was a very small quantity of fish shipped in that way. Q. In your opinion, will that trade continue to increase? —A. I don't see why it should not.

Q. Do you think, then, that the Canadians, under the item in the tariff act, "Fish, fresh for immediate consumption," should be permitted to send in all these frozen fish? A. I don't suppose they ought, but it appears that they have been.

CURING OF FRESH FISH AFTER ENTRY.

Q. Suppose a cargo of frozen halibut or any other kind of fish was brought here and landed as "Fish, fresh, for immediate consumption," the wholesaler who buys them transships them to Boston or New York, does he not?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is there any way for the custom-house officer here to follow them in order to see that they are not cured afterwards?-A. There is a way to follow them, but certainly I have never known anything of that kind to transpire.

Q. They can, and undoubtedly do, cure a great many of these fish that are so entered?-A. I have not the slightest doubt of it.

Q. If the market is very strong they will not lose them?-A. No, sir; they cure them. The fish can be brought in fresh to-day and salted to-morrow, and the public know nothing about it.

EFFECT OF THE TREATY OF 1870-71.

Q. What has been the effect of the treaty of 1870-71 upon the Canadian fisheries?— A. I haven't had much experience down there in the last few years; I have only been there one or two years.

Q. What effect has it had upon our business here?-A. You can see that every day without asking the question.

Q. What is the effect?-A. The amount of it is that we get in surplus fish here in town that we can't dispose of.

Q. Is it driving your fishermen out of the business?-A. Certainly; lots of them. Q. How large is your fleet here now?-A. I don't know how large it is.

DUTY.

Q. What do you want of the United States Government so far as fisheries are concerned?-A. I should like to add to the duty.

Q. What do you say the duty ought to be?-A. I am not prepared to say what I think it ought to be, but I think it ought to be enough to keep the Canadian fish out and give the American fishermen a chance to live.

Q. Can the American people supply the American market?-A. I presume they can; they usually did before Canada got a fleet of fishermen of her own.

Q. In your opinion, should there be a duty on frozen fish? A. Yes, sir; there should be.

Q. Do you know anything about the retail market?-A. I know something about it.

EFFECT OF DUTY UPON THE CONSUMER.

Q. The fishermen sell to the wholesaler?-A. Usually, yes.

Q. And the wholesaler to the jobber. Now, what is the difference between the price the fisherman receives for his fish and what the consumer pays for his?—A. That is a pretty hard question for me to answer, because it varies so much; of course there is some considerable difference; at times there is a big difference, and then at other times there may be less.

Q. Does the fisherman average more than two-thirds of the price paid by the consumer?-A. Usually not, I think. That is putting it a little small, perhaps; I should think they did a little better than that.

Q. From your experience, does the duty on fish affect the price of fish to the consumer; I do not mean to the wholesaler? A. Yes; it does.

Q. How?-A. I don't know as it does to the consumer, either.

Q. If there is any effect, is it not between the wholesaler and the fisherman?—A. That is just what it is usually; to the consumer I don't know as it makes any difference.

CLOSE TIME.

Q. What do you say about close time for mackerel?-A. I think it would be a good plan to close it up to the 1st of June, or better still, I think, to the 1st of July.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. State your grounds for thinking so.-A. On account of the scarcity of fish, which results from catching so many fish early in the season, and catching them before they have a chance to spawn.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. When they are carrying spawn do you think they are as good as they ought to be?-A. No, sir; of course they are not so good. Of course fresh fish readily find a market, but come to salt them and they are not of as much value.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. Is mackerel roe ever eaten as shad and salmon roe?-A. It is eaten quite extensively, by New York folks especially.

HABITS OF MACKEREL.

Q. Do you think the same schools of mackerel go north from Hatteras and New Jersey all along this coast?-A. Oh, yes; there is no doubt about that, because we have followed them from year to year right along the coast.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

FRESH AND SALT FISH.

Q. What proportion of the fresh fish that are thrown upon our markets are caught in American waters?-A. Well, I could not say, but the largest part of them are caught in our waters-that is, in the mackerel line.

Q. What proportion of the mackerel that are caught between Hatteras and Salem or Boston are sold as fresh fish, and what proportion are sold as salt fish, so far as you can form an estimate?-A. I really couldn't tell; that is something I never thought of. The majority we have caught are sold salted, because it is only for two months in the first of the season that they run fresh. Down this way most everyone gets salt fish at this season, but in the early season most everyone gets fresh So really I could not tell what proportion would be sold fresh.

fish.

SPRING FISHING.

Q. Is your fleet here at Gloucester and along our shores here engaged largely in the spring fishing from Hatteras northward?-A. Usually there are about 100 sails of vessels engaged in that business from this port alone, I guess.

RATIO OF FISH CAUGHT IN PROVINCIAL WATERS TO THOSE CAUGHT IN UNITED STATES WATERS.

Q. Can you form an estimate of what proportion of salt fish for sale in our markets are caught in the British waters around the Provinces?-A. I presume three-fifths of them were caught there this year.

Senator FRYE (to Senator Saulsbury). By "British waters" you do not mean within the 3-mile shore line?

Senator SAULSBURY. No.

Q. Are the three-fifths you speak of brought here and thrown upon the market, or are they brought here in bond and transshipped to some other point largely?—A. Those mackerel caught in that vicinity are fetched here and salted and shipped all over the country.

Q. Are there not a great many of their fish that come here salted, having come in bond, and are transshipped without paying duty?-A. I am not aware of that fact; it may be so.

NATIONALITY OF THE FISHERMEN.

Q. You have been in the fishing business a good while and have a general knowledge of it; what proportion of the men engaged in fishing from our ports are nativeborn Americans?-A. I should judge somewhere about two-thirds.

Q. Have any of our vessels been in the habit of going out to the fishing grounds and reshipping men?-A. They have been in the habit some years ago of going down to the Provinces and shipping one or two men or four or five for each vessel. Senator SAULSBURY. I understood from one of the captains that that is not admissible now.

The WITNESS. No, sir; it is not.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. Do they not allow you now to ship other men?-A. No, sir; if a man there wants to go a fishing on one of our vessels he has got to hunt up money enough to bring him to this end before he can ship.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. JOHN McQUIN.

GLOUCESTER, MASS., October 4, 1886.

Capt. JOHN MCQUIN, sworn and examined.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What is your age?-A. Sixty-two.

Q. Where do you reside?-A. East Gloucester.

Q. What is your occupation?-A. I have been ashore mostly for the last four years; for the last fifteen or sixteen years I was running to South America, and before that I was a fisherman.

Q. What business have you been engaged in ashore for the last four years?A. Trading and fish business.

Q. Do you know of any importations of foreign fish from British ports?—A. Three years ago we brought one trip from the British Provinces.

Q. You deal almost entirely, I suppose, in American fish?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you deal in all kinds?-A. I am out of the business now.

Q. You did deal in cod?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And mackerel?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Halibut?-A. No, sir; not halibut.

Q. Herring?—A. Some herring; very few.

HERRING.

Q. Is there much herring business done at this port?-A. Considerable in frozen herring in the winter.

Q. Where do they come from?-A. Some of them come from down to Grand Manan and some from Newfoundland.

Q. What use is made of them?-A. They are used for bait partly, mostly so here. Some of them are peddled out for consumption in New York and Boston. A good many are used in Boston for bait.

Q. Those that are used for bait are used in cod fishing?-A. Yes; cod and halibut. Q. How extensive is that winter frozen-herring business? Or are they frozen by artificial means?-A. No, sir; they are frozen by frost. I should say there are from

35 to 40 vessels go every year; I don't know but more.

Q. Where are these herring taken at Grand Manan-inside the three-mile limit?— A. Yes, sir; they buy them.

Q. These vessels that go for them go as trading vessels instead of fishing vessels, do they? A. Yes, sir; they go down as trading vessels and buy the herring from the natives.

Q. During the last winter, have some of your vessels gone in that way?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did they experience any difficulty with the authorities there about coming as trading vessels?-A. I think not, this last winter. I wasn't there myself, but I didn't hear of any.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. I only inquire for your general knowledge and observation. When you were engaged in the fishing business, where did you fish?-A. When I was cod fishing I fished on the Georges and down on what we call Brown's Bank; in mackerel fishing I always fished in North Bay, the St. Lawrence.

Q. Which side of Prince Edwards Island?-A. I always fished north of the island, not at the straits at all.

Q. How many years did you fish down there?—A. I think I was down there thirteen years.

Q. What was the last year, as near as you can remember?-A. 1863.

Q. You fished substantially most of the time during the period of the existence of the reciprocity treaty of 1854?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you catch your fish-I mean the bulk of them-in respect of the three-mile line?-A. We caught a very small portion of them inside the three miles.

By Senator FRYE:

Q. You caught with a hook and line then?-A. Yes, sir; I never was seining; we fished mostly around the Magdalens, around Bank Bradley and Bank Orphan.

Q. Where did the other American fishermen, during the time that you were fishing there, catch the great bulk of their mackerel, as respects the inshore line?—A. I should think they caught nine-tenths of them outside, offshore.