Q. Do you know what is the general custom, rule, and practice among these retail men who sell to families, whether they regulate themselves, as jobbers and wholesalers do, by the general tone of the market, in all goods, like cottons and everything else, or whether they have a standard price, making enormous profits at some times and smaller at others, without regard to the wholesale price at any time?-A. I should say they would fluctuate with the prices of the wholesalers, but not so much as the prices of the wholesale dealers.

Q. Have you any knowledge, or have you observed about that, or is that only a logical deduction that you make?-A. No, only where I live I often ask the price of fish.

Q. You find that the prices do go up and down some?-A. Yes. I think the fluctuation with the wholesale and jobbing prices would affect the consumer to a degree, but I do not think the fishing interest is the only interest connected with this matter. We run steamers down East, and we take everything-all lines of goods of every description.

TRADE RELATIONS.

Q. What is the name of your line?-A. Yarmouth Steamship Company.

Q. To what provincial ports do you go?-A. Yarmouth; that is the nearest provincial port to Boston.

Q. Is Yarmouth nearer than St. John?-A. Yes, sir; Yarmouth is about due east from here.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. What is the distance from Boston?-A. Two hundred and forty miles.

Q. How large a town is Yarmouth?-A. About 7,000 or 8,000 inhabitants.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What products do you bring chiefly from Yarmouth?-A. Fish, lumber, and potatoes.

Q. Pine lumber chiefly?-A. Very little pine; about all their pine lumber is shipped to the West Indies from there. We get some pine from there, and very little hard wood.

Q. You get fish, lumber, and potatoes?—A. And spiling wood.

Q. And what do you send out there on your return voyages?-A. We send flour, meal, provisions, and most everything. We do not have quite such a variety as Mr. De Long, but we have orders for everything. The business has changed very much, however, within the last ten years. Before I went into the business my father was dealing with the provinces about forty-five years.

Q. Have you observed any particular change in the last four years?-A. Not a great deal, only I think the amount of manufactured goods going down is growing less.

CANADIAN TARIFF.

Q. They put on a heavy protective tariff?-A. They put on a duty, yes, sir. Q. And you think that has caused a diminution of our exportation of goods there?A. Oh, very much, indeed. I know that the lower provinces are very desirous to deal with the United States; they do not like Canada. I know they express great dislike to the Dominion, and would rather deal with this country, sending up their goods here and taking back cargoes of anything they want, rather than get anything from Canada. I know the boot and shoe trade between here and the lower provinces has almost died out; all their boots and shoes they get from Canada now, and their dry goods and the larger part of everything, although they get more or less here of all kinds of goods. Still, the demand, of course, is limited. A large part of their flour that is shipped from here now is Canadian flour; it comes here in bond. That is on account of the duty there. If it was not for the duty there we could sell them American flour altogether, and they would rather have it.

Q. And yet I suppose you know that a great deal of Canadian wheat comes to the United States?-A. Well, I shouldn't suppose much. Does that come across duty paid?

Senator EDMUNDS. It comes across from Manitoba and is ground in the United States.

The WITNESS. I did not know there was much; but I should think that the importation of wheat would be a benefit to the Western country instead of a detriment to all the dealers there, because it would draw the trade into the United States which goes to Canada now.

Q. You think that would have a tendency to diminish the Canadian production of flour, boots and shoes, and all that?-A. I think it would, because the Canadians are not up in manufacturing like we are here; they can not compare with us at all.

Q. And yet you say that rather than pay the duty on American boots and shoes, for instance, which are very fine, although they are machine made, they take the Canadian manufacture of those articles?-A. They feel bound to because they are so much less in price. I forget how much their duty is now, whether it is 17 per cent or 35, but you often see a boot and shoe store down there selling Boston goods entirely, having nothing but American manufactured boots and shoes.

Q. I understood you to say that the boot and shoe business dropped off on account of the Canadian tariff?-A. It dropped off almost entirely, but I know they buy more or less boots and shoes from us yet. A great many of their people will not have Canadian goods at all. There is a certain demand for all kinds of American goods, even with the duties paid.

AMERICAN GOODS PREFERRED IN THE PROVINCES.

Q. It is a question, is it not, as to which the man prefers in regard to the price he pays? A. Yes, sir.

Q. If he would rather pay $3 for a pair of American boots than $2 for Canadian boots, he does it? A. Yes, sir; I think American boots would sell at a higher price down there than Canadian, even if about the same grade.

Q. Yes; and I suppose it is true, is it not, that, supposing there was absolute free trade between the two countries, a great variety of American goods would sell in Canada at a higher price than the same kind of goods of Canadian manufacture?—A. I think so; they will pay a better price, because they like the American manufacture better; they are a better finish and are a better style of goods.

Q. Better made every way?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Made with more skill and better adapted to their purpose?-A. Yes, sir; the Canadian manufactures are all rough.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. Do you know what is the average duty upon such products of our country as go into the Canadian country?-A. I think the lowest is 17 per cent. I have a copy of a book down at the store that I will let you take, and that will give you all such information.

Senator EDMUNDS. We have the Canadian laws.

DECREASE OF EXPORTATION OF FISH.

The WITNESS. I might say here that the export of fish has almost died out—not altogether died out, but very much diminished.

Q. Because before you exported Canadian fish which were kench-cured?-A. Yes, sir; the American method of curing fish is not desirable.

Q. You have lost that export trade because of the difference between kench-cured and pickle-cured? A. Yes, sir; we often bring up a lot of codfish from Yarmouth and send them south on the Metropolitan line of steamers to the West Indies. But formerly the trade was from our American houses here direct.

FREE FISH.

I think a treaty could be made with the provinces to allow our goods to go in there free by allowing free fish here, and I think it would be as much benefit to the United States as it would be to the Dominion. I can not see how it would very much affect the fishermen. Several of the Gloucester dealers have told me that they are more afraid of fish from the provinces being sent out West directly to Chicago than they are of fish coming in here. A man told me-I think it was Mr. Babson-that if he was sure of the fish coming to Boston or Gloucester through the dealers' hands here and not going out West, he would not care anything about it.

Q. You think that was Mr. Babson, of Gloucester?-A. I think that was Mr. Babson; it was either Mr. Babson or a man with Mr. Pew; I forget which.

Q. Who was the man with Mr. Pew?-A. It was one of the gentlemen who were in Washington.

Q. (To Mr. E. R. DE LONG.) Do you think it was Mr. Babson?

Mr. DE LONG. I think it was one of the Cunningham firm.

The WITNESS. It was one of the gentlemen sent on to Washington.

Q. I suppose he meant by that, so far as he was concerned individually, that if they could control the whole business here he would not care?-A. If they could control the business here they would not care.

Q. That they would make more money under free fish than they would under the present state of things, I suppose?-A. They were only afraid that, in case of free

Q. Do you know what is the general custom, rule, and practice among these retail men who sell to families, whether they regulate themselves, as jobbers and wholesalers do, by the general tone of the market, in all goods, like cottons and everything else, or whether they have a standard price, making enormous profits at some times and smaller at others, without regard to the wholesale price at any time?-A. I should say they would fluctuate with the prices of the wholesalers, but not so much as the prices of the wholesale dealers.

Q. Have you any knowledge, or have you observed about that, or is that only a logical deduction that you make?-A. No, only where I live I often ask the price of fish.

Q. You find that the prices do go up and down some?-A. Yes. I think the fluctuation with the wholesale and jobbing prices would affect the consumer to a degree, but I do not think the fishing interest is the only interest connected with this matter. We run steamers down East, and we take everything-all lines of goods of every description.

TRADE RELATIONS.

Q. What is the name of your line?-A. Yarmouth Steamship Company.

Q. To what provincial ports do you go?—A. Yarmouth; that is the nearest provincial port to Boston.

Q. Is Yarmouth nearer than St. John?-A. Yes, sir; Yarmouth is about due east from here.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. What is the distance from Boston?-A. Two hundred and forty miles.

Q. How large a town is Yarmouth?-A. About 7,000 or 8,000 inhabitants.

By Senator EDMUNDS:

Q. What products do you bring chiefly from Yarmouth?-A. Fish, lumber, and potatoes.

Q. Pine lumber chiefly?-A. Very little pine; about all their pine lumber is shipped to the West Indies from there. We get some pine from there, and very little hard wood.

Q. You get fish, lumber, and potatoes?-A. And spiling wood.

Q. And what do you send out there on your return voyages?-A. We send flour, meal, provisions, and most everything. We do not have quite such a variety as Mr. De Long, but we have orders for everything. The business has changed very much, however, within the last ten years. Before I went into the business my father was dealing with the provinces about forty-five years.

Q. Have you observed any particular change in the last four years?-A. Not a great deal, only I think the amount of manufactured goods going down is growing less.

CANADIAN TARIFF.

Q. They put on a heavy protective tariff?-A. They put on a duty, yes, sir. Q. And you think that has caused a diminution of our exportation of goods there?A. Oh, very much, indeed. I know that the lower provinces are very desirous to deal with the United States; they do not like Canada. I know they express great dislike to the Dominion, and would rather deal with this country, sending up their goods here and taking back cargoes of anything they want, rather than get anything from Canada. I know the boot and shoe trade between here and the lower provinces has almost died out; all their boots and shoes they get from Canada now, and their dry goods and the larger part of everything, although they get more or less here of all kinds of goods. Still, the demand, of course, is limited. A large part of their flour that is shipped from here now is Canadian flour; it comes here in bond. That is on account of the duty there. If it was not for the duty there we could sell them American flour altogether, and they would rather have it.

Q. And yet I suppose you know that a great deal of Canadian wheat comes to the United States?-A. Well, I shouldn't suppose much. Does that come across duty paid?

Senator EDMUNDS. It comes across from Manitoba and is ground in the United States.

The WITNESS. I did not know there was much; but I should think that the importation of wheat would be a benefit to the Western country instead of a detriment to all the dealers there, because it would draw the trade into the United States which goes to Canada now.

Q. You think that would have a tendency to diminish the Canadian production of flour, boots and shoes, and all that?-A. I think it would, because the Canadians are not up in manufacturing like we are here; they can not compare with us at all.

Q. And yet you say that rather than pay the duty on American boots and shoes, for instance, which are very fine, although they are machine made, they take the Canadian manufacture of those articles?-A. They feel bound to because they are so much less in price. I forget how much their duty is now, whether it is 17 per cent or 35, but you often see a boot and shoe store down there selling Boston goods entirely, having nothing but American manufactured boots and shoes.

Q. I understood you to say that the boot and shoe business dropped off on account of the Canadian tariff?-A. It dropped off almost entirely, but I know they buy more or less boots and shoes from us yet. A great many of their people will not have Canadian goods at all. There is a certain demand for all kinds of American goods, even with the duties paid.

AMERICAN GOODS PREFERRED IN THE PROVINCES.

Q. It is a question, is it not, as to which the man prefers in regard to the price he pays? A. Yes, sir.

Q. If he would rather pay $3 for a pair of American boots than $2 for Canadian boots, he does it? A. Yes, sir; I think American boots would sell at a higher price down there than Canadian, even if about the same grade.

Q. Yes; and I suppose it is true, is it not, that, supposing there was absolute free trade between the two countries, a great variety of American goods would sell in Canada at a higher price than the same kind of goods of Canadian manufacture?—A. I think so; they will pay a better price, because they like the American manufacture better; they are a better finish and are a better style of goods.

Q. Better made every way?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Made with more skill and better adapted to their purpose?-A. Yes, sir; the Canadian manufactures are all rough.

By Senator SAULSBURY:

Q. Do you know what is the average duty upon such products of our country as go into the Canadian country?-A. I think the lowest is 17 per cent. I have a copy of a book down at the store that I will let you take, and that will give you all such information.

Senator EDMUNDS. We have the Canadian laws.

DECREASE OF EXPORTATION OF FISH.

The WITNESS. I might say here that the export of fish has almost died out—not altogether died out, but very much diminished.

Q. Because before you exported Canadian fish which were kench-cured?—A. Yes, sir; the American method of curing fish is not desirable.

Q. You have lost that export trade because of the difference between kench-cured and pickle-cured?-A. Yes, sir; we often bring up a lot of codfish from Yarmouth and send them south on the Metropolitan line of steamers to the West Indies. But formerly the trade was from our American houses here direct.

FREE FISH.

I think a treaty could be made with the provinces to allow our goods to go in there free by allowing free fish here, and I think it would be as much benefit to the United States as it would be to the Dominion. I can not see how it would very much affect the fishermen. Several of the Gloucester dealers have told me that they are more afraid of fish from the provinces being sent out West directly to Chicago than they are of fish coming in here. A man told me I think it was Mr. Babson-that if he was sure of the fish coming to Boston or Gloucester through the dealers' hands here and not going out West, he would not care anything about it.

Q. You think that was Mr. Babson, of Gloucester?-A. I think that was Mr. Babson; it was either Mr. Babson or a man with Mr. Pew; I forget which.

Q. Who was the man with Mr. Pew?-A. It was one of the gentlemen who were in Washington.

Q. (To Mr. E. R. DE LONG.) Do you think it was Mr. Babson?

Mr. DE LONG. I think it was one of the Cunningham firm.

The WITNESS. It was one of the gentlemen sent on to Washington.

Q. I suppose he meant by that, so far as he was concerned individually, that if they could control the whole business here he would not care?-A. If they could control the business here they would not care.

Q. That they would make more money under free fish than they would under the present state of things, I suppose?-A. They were only afraid that, in case of free

fish, fish would be sent from the producers in the provinces directly to the consumers out West or to the jobbers out West.

Q. And that the dealers here would lose their profit?-A. Yes, sir; he thought if the duty was kept on it would keep them out.

RELATIVE ADVANTAGES OF BOSTON AND THE WESTERN PORTS OF DELIVERY.

Q. But as the duty is the same at Chicago or Detroit as it is at Gloucester or Boston, the Chicago or Detroit man would get his consignment direct, just as well under the duty as without it, could he not?-A. He could really; but when a person is sending goods through the country in that way, and there is a duty on them, there is a great deal more trouble, expense, etc., in getting them there.

Q. How is it any more trouble and expense to pay duties at Detroit and Chicago than it is at Boston?-A. Suppose the fish go through on railroad and pass through some intermediate port on the line

Q. You know that Chicago is a port of delivery, and so is St. Louis; so it could not make any difference so far as that is concerned, could it?—A. I think it could.

Q. How? A. For instance, there is a merchant in St. Louis whose goods come to him in bond at the custom-house; he has to put those goods through the customhouse. Supposing he has only 3 or 4 barrels, it will cost him from 25 to 50 cents a barrel to do it, whereas if they are free goods they are entered by the railroad company and go through just the same as they would to Boston or New York.

Q. But I am on the point of the tariff as it is now. Mr. Babson-taking him to be the man you refer to wants to keep it so because it will keep Canadian goods from coming to our people in any case. My point is whether it would make any difference, with the law standing as it now does, whether the goods were sent to the St. Louis or Chicago port of delivery in bond after they had crossed the line at Port Huron, so far as the duty is concerned, instead of coming here, the custom-house laws and regulations being precisely the same?-A. If you had been through the custom-house you would know the reason.

Q. I wish you would tell it to me.-A. A man in St. Louis perhaps orders 10 or 15 barrels of fish, and he probably knows nothing about the custom-house rules and regulations; the custom-house business has to pass through the hands of different clerks, and may consume a couple of hours, or else it will cost him something to get somebody to attend to it for him.

Senator EDMUNDS. That I can understand.

The WITNESS. But if they go through free the entry is made at the border, and the goods are delivered the same as they are here.

Q. Yes; but if they are free at Chicago or St. Louis they are free here?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then, being free, what is to hinder the Chicago and St. Louis men from getting their fish directly from the Banks instead of from here?-A. Nothing at all.

Q. They stand on equal ground, the St. Louis and Chicago men, with the Boston men?-A. Not exactly; a Boston man receives a whole cargo of fish, one or two thousand barrels; if that many fish were shipped from Halifax to Western ports of delivery they would, perhaps, be shipped to fifty different people, and each of those persons would be obliged to go to the custom-house, pay duty, and spend time.

Q. That is a question of concentration of business? A. Yes, sir. The receivers of fish here who would have the large cargoes would put their cargoes through the custom-house, knowing all the ins and outs and what is required; whereas the man out West who takes fish as a kind of supplementary article to his general business knows nothing about the custom-house ways of transacting business, and has either got to make inquiries and spend time, or else get some clerk or broker to do it for him.

CUSTOM-HOUSE BROKERS.

Q. Do your people here attend to their own business with the custom-house directly, or do they employ a broker?-A. We attend to it ourselves.

. Most of the large houses do?-A. A good many do.

Q. A good many have a man in their employ for that purpose?-A. Yes, for nothing else; but as for ourselves we put everything through ourselves.

Q. You do not employ any broker?-A. No, sir. We have so many entries at the custom-house that we are pretty well acquainted with it.