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Q. Do you know whether the duty on fish affects the price to the consumer, the man who buys of the retailer?-A. I couldn't say so much about that.

Q. What do you want of Canada, Captain?-A. We want them to pay a fair duty on their fish, and give us a chance.

FRESH FISH AND MODERN REFRIGERATING PROCESSES.

Q. How about fresh fish?—A. We don't want fresh fish free of duty, either.
Q. Why not?-A. Because we have got enough of our own.

Q. State whether or not the importation of fresh fish and its increased consumption do not decrease the consumption of salt fish?-Yes, sir; I think the more fresh fish there is the less salt fish we shall use.

Q. Does not the fact that, under modern processes, fresh fish can be sent all over the country in refrigerator cars affect the salt-fish trade?-A. Oh, yes; there is no question about that.

Q. So that your desire is a duty on both salt and fresh fish?--A. Yes, sir.

Q. How large a duty? Is the present duty large enough?-A. No, sir. They have the best of us every day with duty only at 50 cents a quintal.

COMPARATIVE COST AND RUNNING EXPENSES OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. How do they get the best of us?-A. Their vessels do not cost more than about half as much as ours, and their expenses are low all the way through to what ours are.

Q. Do you know about their wages?-A. They generally go on shares, and if they make $50 they are satisfiedl. Fifty dollars is no account to our men. A man can't keep a family on that. Down there they have their farms, and they go out fishing in sunumer, and if they get $50 in cash for their fishing they can get along very well.

Q. So your idea is that on account of the low prices of wages there, their manner of living, and the low cost of vessels, together with the nearness of the Banks to the coast, it is impossible for us to compete with them?-A. No, sir; it is not impossible, but we ought to have at least a dollar duty in order to enable us to compete with with them on fair terms to us.

Q. A dollar on both salt and fresh fish?-A. A dollar on both salt and fresh fish.

Q. Do you know where you can find a market where there is not a duty?--A. I don't know of any. We have to pay a duty everywhere.

BOUNTIES.

Q. Do you know whether or not nearly all other nations pay bounties to their fishermen?-A. They do in Canada and they do in France.

Q. Do you know how much bounty is paid in Cana-la?-A. I have often heard them telling about the bounty they were getting.

Q. So much to a boatman and so much per ton to the vessel?-A. Yes, sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. Are the Canadian vessels built of poorer material than ours?-A. Yes; of soft wood. Then most people down there have large tracts of land and they cut their ship timber from their lands.

Q. They plank their vessels with spruce?-A. Sometimes with hard wood. It don't cost them but $27 a ton to construct their vessels, while we pay $15, $18, and $50.

Q. A great many of our fishing vessels are built of the best white oak, are they not?-A. Yes, sir; most of them.

Q. What is the average cost per ton of, say, a 70-ton fisherman, rigged and all really for sea?-A. If they were as high to-day as they were three years ago, I suppose it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $8,000 to $8,500, or $100 a ton.

Q. Do you know about the rigging and fitting of Canadian vessels?-A. I suppose that costs pretty near as much as ours, because they get a great deal of that material from this way. I don't think they buy that at any less cost than we do. Where they make the great saving is on the hull and spars.

MACKEREL FISHING.

Q. Do you have anything to do with mackerel fishing?-A. No, sir.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Is there any mackerel fishing going on from Provincetown?-A. Oh, yes; there are three firms in this town.

а

Q. State approximately.-A. According to the quality of the men. Sometimes we give them as high as $150 and $160; and then again we would hire a poorer class man and give him $125.

Q. For the voyage?--A. For the voyage.
Q. You do not catch any fish on shares?-A. No, sir.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. What would be the average wages for a voyage?-A. For such vessels as you ask me about, the wages would be about $1,500 to $1,700.

Q. That does not enter into what you call the outfit?-A. The outfit is one thing and the wages another. Senator EDMUNDS. That is what I supposed.

By Senator Frye: Q. Do not the owners prefer the old style of going on shares?—A. We can't hire men very well to go on shares; business is so bad they are liable to fall in debt.

Q. Formerly did not nearly all the fishermen sail on shares?—A. Yes, sir; when times were good they liked to go that way.

Q. But business has now become so uncertain that you say you have to hire your men instead oi taking them on shares?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What effect has that had upon vessel owners?-A. The owners have to bear all the losses.

Q. Has it had any tendency to drive them out of the business?-A. Yes, sir.

BAIT.

Q. Where do you do your fishing now?-A. On the Grand Banks.
Q. What do you use for bait?-A. Clams.
Q. Have you any occasion to buy bait of Canada?-A. No, sir.
Q. Have any of your captains bought bait of Canada?-A. Not of late years.
Q. Is clam bait suitable?-A. Yes, sir.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. Suppose you could get squid by running within the 3-mile shore line of Canadla?-A. We always get squid on the Grand Banks whenever they are there. Q. Then, what occasion have your vessels to go inside the 3

mile limits?-A. They don't

go

there.

EFFECT OF THE TREATY OF 1870.

after year.

Q. What was the effect, upon the fishery business, of the treaty of 1870 during its continuance?-A. It has been a ruinous business for us for the last four years. Before that we were getting along very well. The last four years have been hard ones for us.

Q. The treaty expired in July, 1885. How did it affect you the last four years differently from the first six years of the treaty?-A. We have it about as bad tö-day for prices as at any time. Q. What happened four or five years ago?—A. The business kept declining year Q. Did the Canadian fleet increase?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did the supply of fish they brought into this country increase?-A. Yes, sir. That is what used us up. For two years, in particular, they built a terrible sight of Canadian vessels down there, and all went fishing two or three trips a year, and put their fish against us. Every time we sent fish to Boston, New York, or anywhere else, the news would come back “Here is tish from English vessels selling for such a price, and if you don't sell for less you can't sell at all."

Q. So the Canadian fleet commenced increasing largely about 1880?–A. Yes, sir; about 1880, largely. I don't think they are building many for the last year or so, but before that they went into it rapidly.

Q. And broke you down rapidly?-A. And broke us down rapidly; filled our markets full of fish.

EFFECT OF DUTY UPON THE CONSUMER.

Q. To whom do you sell fish?-A. Different ones.
Q. Wholesalers? A. Wholesalers.
Q. You do not retail?--A. Nothing of any account.

Q. Do you know whether the duty on fish affects the price to the consumer, the man who buys of the retailer?-A. I couldn't say so much about that.

Q. What do you want of Canada, Captain?-A. We want them to pay a fair duty on their fish, and give us a chance.

FRESH FISH AND MODERN REFRIGERATING PROCESSES.

Q. How about fresh fish?-A. We don't want fresh fish free of duty, either.
Q. Why not?-d. Because we have got enough of our own.

Q. State whether or not the importation of fresh fish and its increased consumption do not decrease the consumption of salt fish?-Yes, sir; I think the more fresh fish there is the less salt fish we shall use.

Q. Does not the fact that, under modern processes, fresh fish can be sent all over the country in refrigerator cars affect the salt-fish trade?-1. Oh, yes; there is no question about that.

Q. So that your desire is a duty on both salt and fresh fish?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How large a duty? Is the present duty large enough?—A. No, sir. They have the best of us every day with duty only at 50 cents a quintal.

COMPARATIVE COST AND RUNNING EXPENSES OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. How do they get the best of us?-A. Their vessels do not cost more than about half as much as ours, and their expenses are low all the way through to what ours are.

Q. Do you know about their wages?-A. They generally go on shares, and if they make $50' they are satisfieil. Fifty dollars is no account to our men.

A man can't keep a family on that. Down there they have their farms, and they go out fishing in summer, and if they get $50 in cash for their fishing they can get along very well.

Q. So your idea is that on account of the low prices of wages there, their manner of living, and the low cost of vessels, together with the nearness of the Banks to the coast, it is impossible for us to compete with them?-A. No, sir; it is not impossible, but we ought to have at least a dollar duty in order to enable us to compete with with them on fair terms to us.

Q. A dollar on both salt and fresh fish?-A. A dollar on both salt and fresh fish.

Q. Do you know where you can find a market where there is not a duty?--A. I don't know of any. We have to pay a duty everywhere.

BOUNTIES.

Q. Do you know whether or not nearly all other nations pay bounties to their fishermen?-A. They do in Canada and they do in France.

Q. Do you know how much bounty is paid in Canada?—A. I have often heard them telling about the bounty they were getting.

Q. So much to a boatman and so much per ton to the vessel?-A. Yes, sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF UNITED STATES AND CANADIAN VESSELS.

Q. Are the Canadian vessels built of poorer material than ours?-A. Yes; of soft wood. Then most people down there have large tracts of land and they cut their ship timber from their lands.

Q. They plank their vessels with spruce?-A. Sometimes with hard wood. It don't cost them but $27 a ton to construct their vessels, while we pay $15, $48, and $50.

Q. A great many of our fishing vessels are built of the best white oak, are they not?-A. Yes, sir; most of them.

Q. What is the average cost per ton of, say, a 70-ton fisherman, rigged and all readly for sea?-A. If they were as high to-day as they were three years ago, I suppose it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $8,000 to $8,500, or $100 a ton.

Q. Do you know about the rigging and fitting of Canadian vessels?--A. I suppose that costs pretty near as much as ours, because they get a great deal of tha mat from this way. I don't think they buy that at any less cost than we do. Where they make the great saving is on the hull and spars.

MACKEREL FISHING.

Q. Do you have anything to do with mackerel fishing?-A. No, sir.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Is there any mackerel fishing going on from Provincetown?-A. Oh, yes; there are three firms in this town.

CANADIAN COMPETITION.

By Senator SAULSBURY: Q. If you could buy your vessels as cheap as the Canadians, do you think you could compete with them in the fishing business?—A. We can't get men here as low as they do. Men are cheaper that way, on account of their way of living. When we come to fit our vessels our fitting costs a good deal more. Q. The cost of wages and provisions?-A. Yes, sir; that would be a great deal

So, really, if fish were $4 a quintal, we ought to have $1 duty to compete with them, for they would do as well on $3 as we would on $4.

Q. If that $1 duty was sufficient, so that Canadians could not afford to send their fish, how would it affect the market?-A. The fish would not rush in so freely as they do now, so that there would be a chance for us, when we sell fish, to get something for them to pay us. But as it is now they put their fish in so low that we sell at a loss every time. If their fish did not compete with ours, there would be a chance for us to live.

more.

EFFECT OF DUTY UPON THE CONSUMER.

Q. I am sorry that the increase of duty does not inure to the benefit of the fishermen here, but my inquiry had reference to the consumer of the fish. How would he be affected by this tariff of 50 cents or $1 upon Canadian fish?-A. I don't think it would make much difference to the fellow that uses the fish. I guess he has to pay about the same anyway.

Q. The middlemen put it up on him?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the present price of fish to the wholesaler—that is, what do you get for your fish?-A. We get about $2.25. Q. What does it cost you to catch them?-A. It costs us about $2.75 to catch them.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Two dollars and seventy-five cents for what quantity?-A. For 100 pounds. That is the way we are doing business.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. MURDOCK KEMP.

PROVINCETOWN, Mass., October 1, 1886. Capt. MURDOCK KEMP sworn and examined.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. Where do you reside?-A. Provincetown.
Q. What is your business?- A. Fisherman.
Q. In what capacity?-A. Master.
Q. How long have you been a fisherman?-A. About fifteen or sixteen years.
Q. Where do you fish?-A. At the Grand Bank mostly.
Q. For codfish?-A. Yes, sir.

BAIT,

Q. What is the bait you use?-A. Clam bait.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to go in to buy bait?—A. Not of late years; not since we commenced carrying claim bait.

Q. How long have you carried clam bait?-A. For the last six years.

THREE-MILE LIMIT.

Q. Did you ever have any occasion to go within the 3-mile shore line for anything?-A. No, sir; no more than for harbor.

Q. In a storm or to repair damages?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you done so this season?-A. Yes, sir.

SEIZU'RE OF THE PEARL NELSON.

Q. What vessel?-A. The Pearl Nelson.

Q. Please give an account of that affair.-A. On our way home we went into Arichat, Nova Scotia, for harbor.

Q. In a storm?-A. There was a heavy breeze of wind, and some of my crew that belonged there landed there that night. I anchord about 11 o'clock at night. I

went ashore the next morning to report at the custom-house, and of course the custom-house officers stopped my vessel.

Q. Seized her?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. For what reason?—A. For letting my crew land before I entered the customhouse; that is all the reason he gave me.

Q. What caused you to allow them to land?-A. I didn't know it was any harm. I have never seen or heard of it being stopped before.

By Senator EDMUNDS: Q. Had you ever done that before?-A. I had done it time and again, and seen everybody else do it.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. And never before heard of anybody being troubled about it?-A. No, sir.
Q. What was the result?-A. I paid $200 and got clear.
Q. You paid the $200, did you?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they give you any law, regulation, or rule?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. In writing?-A. Printed.
Q. Have you it with you?—A. It is down to Mr. Cook's store.

EFFECT OF THE LAST TREATY.

Q. What was the effect of the last treaty upon the fishery business?-A. The effect with me is that of course I can't get a living at it.

Q. How many men do you take?-A. Seventeen, all told. Q. Do you pay them wages?-A. Yes, sir. Last year my wages averaged about $130.

Q. For a voyage?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long a voyage?-A. I was gone about three months and a half.

Q. What was your outfit?—A. I suppose Mr. Cook can tell you that better than I can; I don't know as I know real well.

Q. What was the result of your operations for the season?-A. I got a full fare of fish.

Q. How did they pay you?-A. None of them are sold yet, and from the outlook now it is not likely they will be.

COMPARATIVE WAGES IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN CANADA.

Q. Do you know what the difference is between the wages of your men and Canadian wages?—A. The difference is that my men are sure of something and Canadian men are not sure of anything, for they only get according to what the fish fetch.

Q. They sail on shares?-A. They sail on shares.

Q. Will not your men sail on shares?-A. We can't get them to, and they haven't done so since I have been going out of this town; that is, for the past fifteen or six· teen years.

Q. Have you any idea how much the men who do the fishing get out of a season's fishing up there?-A. They get from $200 down to $100 to a man for the fishing

Q. Our men averaging about $130, as you say?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then do they not get about as much as your men?-A. There is no great difference.

season.

MARKETS FOR CANADAIN FISH.

Q. Where do those Canadian vessels carry their fish to?-A. To the ports where they belong.

Q. And then where do they carry them?-A. There is a big pile of them going to Boston, New York, and other American markets; some go to the West Indies.

By Senator EDMONDS: Q. They do not run them straight down here from the Banks?-A. No, sir; they first land in the ports where the vessels belong.

Q. And are sent off afterwards?-A. Yes, sir; by the vessels that catch them.

Q. Then the vessels that catch them do bring them down here sometimes?-A. Yes, sir; after they are dried.

COST OF CURING FISH.

By Senator FRYE:
Q. You bring your fish in here?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. What do you pay your men for curing?-A. The cost of curing here is oneeighth of the fish.

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