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We do have a very small number of recommendations which to my mind would not materially affect the law as drafted.

I might read them. They are on page 18 of our testimony. The following recommendations are based on opinions as to future conditions, as contrasted with present conditions ; i.e., on estimates of the probable evolution of copying and dissemination of copyrighted works within the next quarter century. The CICP recommends that:

1. The payment of moderate fees or royalties be recognized by the Congress as a budget cost in research, development, education, and other productive uses of copyrighted materials; this cost being recognized in order to maintain a free enterprise system in which the copyright principle has become essential to the advance of science and the arts.

2. In revising the copyright statute the Congress introduce no measure which would prolong or aggravate the present short-term technical and economic advantage (as described in the preceding statement) of the consumer of copyrighted works over the producer ;we make the point we do because the new devices are so available; the consumer has very ready access to all of copyrighted materials and noncopyrighted materials, too, whereas the producer has less and less control over this access. That is the point that we emphasize here nor which might hinder the normal economic readjustment of this advantage that might be brought about, for example, by establishment of a more effective and rapid means for the consumer to obtain permission to make any number of copies of copyrighted works, and to make prompt payment for same.

3. As an alternative to legislation within the copyright statute to correct the economic advantage of the copyright consumer over the producer, the Congress consider chartering a nonprofit utility or semiprivate corporation, a copyright clearinghouse, to be operated jointly by representatives of both consumers and producers of copyrighted works for the purpose of enabling rapid, inexpensive, and convenient economic exchange of moderate fees or royalties for rights to copy or to make other uses of copyrighted materials.

In short we have suggested that the Government itself take the responsibility for the clearinghouse which we have conceived and which with appropriate support we would be more than happy to set up provided the study which we are about to have made proves that it is a feasible project.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. In No. 1, when you say the payment of moderate fees or royalties be recognized by the Congress and so forth, you mean in any enterprise?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. Yes, sir; that is right. Right now in many situations the cost of publications is not recognized as part of a project.

I could name at least one Government agency which has been years behind in publication because of that very fact. That is the U.S. Geological Survey, if you must know.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. Does the U.S. Government use copyright materials?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. It does use them without payment. In fact, that is as it should be.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. You are not suggesting that the Government pay for copyrighted materials?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. No; but in the projects it supports it should make allowance for this kind of charge.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Mr. St. Onge.
Mr. Sr. ONGE. Professor, who established your committee?

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Mr. MEYERHOFF. My two associates here were keenly interested. One, Mr. Sophar, at that time was connected with the Microcard Corp., and his concern was for the availability of material. Then Dr. Heilprin, who is the scientist for the Council on Library Resources, was deeply concerned with the library use and fair use of material and with research that was being undertaken by his organization or being sponsored by his organization.

I am afraid these two people coaxed me into this situation, but I came willingly because I had faced the problem in several other connections.

Mr. ST. ONGE. How long has your committee been in existence?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. The committee came into existence as an unincorporated body in 1958.

Mr. St. ONGE. Do you have a budget?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. No, sir. Practically all of it has been voluntary work. Dr. Heilprin and his organization has contributed a fund for specific purposes which is about used up. I think there is only about $120 left in it. However, we are now raising funds for the research project which the Bureau of Social Science Research will undertake and that is being raised through contributions from industries that are concerned, either publishers or the manufacturers of equipment and supplies.

Mr. St. Onge. Can you give us a date when you expect this study to be completed ?

Mr. MEYERHOFF. Mr. Sophar is our secretary and he has been dealing with this.

Mr. SOPHAR. I believe the first phase, phase 1, of the study possibly will be ready by the end of the summer.

Mr. MEYERHOFF. You might tell them what this includes.
Mr. SOPHAR. Mr. Heilprin would know this in greater detail.

Mr. HEILPRIN. Depending on our funds we can go faster or slower but in general I would like to say generally the first accurate and careful return will not be before about a year from July 15. We are going to start officially on that date, and it will take probably 3, 4, 5 months to gather the data and another 3 or 4 to analyze it and design a system for carefully distributing the royalties.

This seems to be the principal difficult point in the problem, how to design the sampling system so that no small publishers and copyright owners are omitted from a sampling. Sampling is the only way of dealing with this. We can't have a 1-to-1 correspondence between millions of 10 cent transactions and the copyright owners, so we must sample. It is the use of this sampling system, which must be done scientifically and fairly, that requires really technical study.

Mr. St. ONGE. So there is a possibility that this subcommittee would not have the results of your study?

Mr. HEILPRIN. I am putting it at a year simply to be on the safe side. We might be able to get going in 6 months, but I think that to make such a promise would be rather poor.

Mr. MEYERHOFF. We will be glad to relay to the committee the results as we get them. The final decisions, of course, will be based upon the completed study, but we will be very glad to keep you informed.

Mr. St. ONGE. I think we should encourage the professor and his committee to furnish us with whatever information they can come up with before we take final action on the bill. I have no further questions.

Mr. MEYERHOFF. Could we ask you what your timing on the bill is so that we may be guided ?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. We cannot be too enlightening at this point. Mr. MEYERHOFF. Must I assume you are worse off than we are?

Mr. KASTENMEIER. I do not anticipate it will take us a year but congressional prognostications have been wrong before.

Mr. St. ONGE. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. If Mr. St. Onge's inquiries seemed odd to you, it is generally because we like to identify the witnesses who testify before us and the nature of their work.

Mr. MEYERHOFF. Then in the committee you are dealing here with only three of the directors. The committee as a group is quite in

a formal, but as Mrs. Linden indicated today, the publishers are interested and therefore are represented in it. The publishers include not alone the publishers of textbooks but the university presses who were the first of the publishers to become interested, and also the scientific societies that sponsor the publication of scientific periodicals and engineering publications.

Then, of course, our concern was with the users and shall we call them the transmitters, the manufacturers of equipment and the users of equipment for reproduction. So, we have in CICP representatives of many organizations. If I may name one or two—and I don't like to advertise any in particular—the Eastman Kodak Co. is one, a large manufacturer of supplies for reproduction. I might also mention the manufacturers of copying equipment such as Xerox, and so on. But then, rather than lengthen the list, what we tried to do with a reasonable degree of success, Mr. Chairman, was to get some representative of each group concerned with the copyright problem and the creativity and the use into this organization, so that all points of view and all special interests would be represented.

It is not an easy job and do not think for a moment that there have not been some very frank and candid expressions of opinion and some differences of opinion.

But it seemed to us that that was the only way to resolve a rather complicated issue of this kind.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. We appreciate that explanation, partly because of the fact that your organization's title, Committee To Investigate Copyright Problems, seems to be something with which this subcommittee is also concerned.

Mr. SOPHAR. Mr. Chairman, we thought of it first.

Mr. KASTENMEIER. The committee thanks all three of you gentlemen, Dr. Heilprin, and Professor Meyerhoff and Mr. Sophar for appearing here today.

With your testimony this hearing for today is concluded. The next meeting of this subcommittee for the purpose of continuing hearings on copyright revision will be at a time, date, and place to be subsequently announced, and, until that time, the subcommittee stands adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned subject to call.)

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Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10:15 a.m., pursuant to call, in room 2226, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William L. St. Onge presiding.

Present: Representatives St. Onge, Edwards, Tenzer, and Poff.

Also present: Herbert Fuchs, counsel; and Allan Cors, associate counsel.

Mr. St. ONGE (presiding). The hearing will come to order.

The subcommittee has reconvened to hear further testimony on H.R. 4347 and companion measures for revision of the copyright law. Today and tomorrow we shall hear witnesses with miscellaneous interests, some of whom were scheduled to appear earlier, but who were unable to appear at that time.

Next week, on August 11 and 12, the subcommittee will hear witnesses on the manufacturing clause, sections 601 and 603, and subsequent plans will be announced later.

The Chair urges all witnesses to summarize their prepared statements and to make their oral presentations as brief as possible so that the subcommittee may be able to complete its schedule by noon, when it must adjourn.

The first witness this morning is the Honorable George D. Cary, Deputy Register of Copyrights, who will address us on the question of whether the subcommittee should separately report at this time a Copyright Office fee bill, H.R. 2853, which would increase fees in conformity with section 708 of H.R. 4347.

H.R. 2853 will be inserted in the record at this point. (H.R. 2853 follows:)

(H.R. 2853, 89th Cong., 1st sess.] A BILL To amend title 17, United States Code, with relation to the fees to be charged Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 211 of title 17, United States Code, is amended by substituting the amount “$75" in lieu of the amount "$25".

SEC. 2. Section 215 of said title 17, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

"FEES.--The Register of Copyrights shall receive, and the persons to whom the services designated are rendered shall pay, the following fees :

"For the registration of a claim to copyright in any work, including a print or label used for articles of merchandise, $6; for the registration of a claim to renewal of copyright, $4; which fees shall include a certificate for each registration: Provided, That only one registration fee shall be required in the case of several volumes of the same book published and deposited at the same time: And provided further, That with respect to works of foreign origin, in lieu of payment

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