The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you represent?

Mr. CAMERON. I represent the American Graphophone Company of New York.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you desire to be heard by the committee?

Mr. CAMERON. Yes, sir. I wish to say at this point, however, sir, that with all due respect to the Librarian, it would seem to me that there is no good reason existing why he should depart from the mode of procedure in connection with these talking machines that has been taken in all the rest of the bill-that is, that those who are the proponents for the changes in this bill that are of a very radical nature and very radically different from existing law should present to the committee their reasons for such changes, before hearing from the opponents of the bill.

Mr. PUTNAM. I had no intention, Mr. Chairman, of departing from that mode of procedure. I understood that two gentlemen in behalf of these provisions had been heard, Mr. Sousa and Mr. Herbert; and I had also been informed that the other interests, including those of the publishers, did not care to be heard at this point; they were content to have the provision before you as the affirmative. I desire now that the opponents of the bill should have the fullest opportunity, at the earliest possible moment, to present their views to the committee. The opponents have not advised me as to whether they had agreed upon any method of presenting their case. I simply had this suggestion from Mr. Davis which I laid before you, and the fact that Mr. O'Connell, representing ten manufacturers of automatic piano players, also wishes to be heard.

Mr. PAUL H. CROMELIN. Mr. Chairman, as the representative of the Columbia Phonograph Company, I should like to know whether it is the purpose of this committee to sit to-morrrow. I had promised certain gentlemen in New York City to telephone them between half after 12 to-day and 1 o'clock, so that they can leave on the Congressional Limited and be here to-morrow, if it is your intention to-morrow to hear the opponents of this bill.

The CHAIRMAN (after consultation with other members of the committee). We will meet to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Mr. CROMELIN. And may I ask also, Mr. Chairman, if it is your intention to continue these proceedings this afternoon!

The CHAIRMAN. We will continue this session until about half past 1. Mr. CROMELIN. Thank you very much.

Mr. ALBERT H. WALKER. Mr. Chairman, I wish to inquire whether the committee is willing to sit also on Saturday to continue the hearings?

The CHAIRMAN (after further consultation). It is the purpose of the committee, if possible, to finish its hearings to-morrow.

Mr. WALKER. I wish to suggest to the committee that this bill is incomparably the most important measure that has been before any Committee on Patents of either House of the American Congress at any time since the civil war, and I think it is the most important measure that ever was before any Committee on Patents of the American Congress since the enactment of the patent law in 1836.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not the purpose of the committee to deprive anyone who desires a hearing of that privilege. On the contrary, the committee will sit so long as anyone desires to be heard, within any sort of reason.

Mr. WALKER. If the Senator will permit me one moment, I am prepared and have been preparing myself through a rather long lifetime to elucidate the subject of copyright law; and I appear before the committee in the interests of the American people and also in the interests of the authors.

THE CHAIRMAN. How much time do you wish, Mr. Walker?

Mr. WALKER. I wish at least two hours, and I can take it at any time at the convenience of the committee, at any day.

The CHAIRMAN (after further consultation with the other members of the committee). We will hear you, Mr. Walker, one hour to-morrow morning, if we are unable to reach you to-day, with the privilege of submitting in writing your views if you so desire.

Mr. WALKER. If the chairman will allow me to make the suggestion, if I were to be heard to-morrow for an hour, that would probably cut off other gentlemen who would wish to speak much shorter than that, and it would be very convenient for me, if the committee is to sit at all on Saturday, to hear other gentlemen on Friday and let me speak on Saturday.

The CHAIRMAN. If we are compelled to hold a session on Saturday, we will hear you on that day; but we hope that the gentlemen who are present to present their views to the committee will finish in such time as will permit you to have your hour to-morrow morning.

Mr. WALKER. Then, is it understood that I am to speak first tomorrow morning?

The CHAIRMAN. I think not.

Mr. CURRIER. There are some other gentlemen here who will want five or ten minutes.

The CHAIRMAN. Inasmuch as you prefer to go over until Saturday, if convenient to the committee, I should think that the members from out of town and the other gentlemen here should be first to address the committee.

Mr. WALKER. That is very agreeable to me.

Mr. SOUSA. I sincerely trust, Mr. Chairman, that in Mr. Walker's discussion it will not be permitted to discuss the copyright of the past. We are not after that. We want a copyright of the future. If he will talk about things that will be for the benefit of the future, I think you should give him the time; but if he is going into a discussion of what was done a hundred or two hundred or three hundred years ago, we do not want it. [Laughter.] That is the past; we want the future. Mr. CROMELIN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to give notice, as the representative of the Columbia Phonograph Company, representing large interests which are vitally affected by this bill; as the representative of a company which knew nothing of this proposed legislation before the publication took place on the 31st of May; as the representative of a company that was not invited to take part in the so-called conferences, notwithstanding the fact that its industry is so broad that it embraces the world, that I would like to be heard, and that it will probably take at least one hour or two hours to present this subject in all of its ramifications to your committee. It was my understanding that the committee would adjourn to-day at 12 or 1 o'clock, and in view of the fact that the opponents of this measure have had to come together quickly, and that they have had no time to organize, while on the other hand those who are proposing it have had conferences for more than one year, I propose, sir, that it would be meet and proper at

this time to adjourn this conference until to-morrow morning, giving the opponents of the measure a chance to decide upon a plan of action for presenting this matter to your committee, and that we will come here to-morrow morning and present the various views of those who are interested.

I therefore suggest the advisability of a postponement until to-morrow morning or an adjournment.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand that all the opponents of the provisions of this law relative to talking-machine devices can be heard within one hour?

Mr. CROMELIN. No, sir. I speak on behalf of myself, for my own industry only. There are others

The CHAIRMAN. How many desire a hearing?

Mr. CROMELIN. I believe that there are at least a half a dozen gentlemen who desire a hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. Does each want one hour?

Mr. CROMELIN. I do not know how long it will take them to present their views.

The CHAIRMAN. We established a rule at the beginning of the hearings yesterday limiting the statements to ten minutes each.

Mr. CROMELIN. I understood, Mr. Chairman, that that was in regard to the proponents of the measure. I did not understand that you intended to limit those persons whose interests are vitally affected by this measure to ten minutes to reply. I do not believe that is the intention of this committee; and I submit the question to the honorable chairman.

Mr. CHANEY. Mr. Chairman, it is entirely out of all reason to expect us to remember what these gentlemen will say. We will want a good deal of it in typewriting anyhow; and they can simply give a synopsis of an argument here as to what they want to do, and we must expect them to submit to the committee in writing for our use such matters as they seem to think important for our consideration when we are giving the bill consideration. They do not need so long a time to make a speech here. Let them prepare their matter and hand it in.

Mr. CROMELIN. Mr. Chairman, we hope to file briefs in addition to the oral statements.

Mr. CURRIER. As far as the House committee is concerned there is no expectation that there will be a report of this bill at this session of the Congress.

Mr. CROMELIN. Will the gentleman be good enough to state that positively on behalf of the committee, so that the interests that ought to be represented here to-day, and whose representatives must remain away, can be satisfied on that point?

Mr. CURRIER. I can state it most positively, as far as the House is concerned.

Mr. CROMELIN. I thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. And the same is true so far as the Senate is concerned.

Mr. CROMELIN. I thank you very much. We have endeavored to get that information from the Librarian, and he stated yesterday that it was highly improbable, but he could not state

Mr. PUTNAM. Mr. Cromelin, if you will excuse me, I said that I had no right to give any such prophecy on the part of the committee; it was not within my control. You will do me the justice to say,

Mr. Cromelin, that I added that when the copyright office asked for this bill to be introduced it had no expectation itself of any possibility of its being reported at this session.

Mr. CROMELIN. Thank you very much for the information I have gotten from the Librarian and from the chairmen of the respective committees. That assures us on the point, for the first time, that this bill will not be reported at this session of Congress.

(After a consultation between the members of the committees:)

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has decided that it will hear some representative of all these interests, if they shall so desire, not exceeding an hour, with the same permission to supply in writing such matter as they may desire, as was given to Mr. Walker. I might add that it seems to us that the representatives of these interests can state concisely in that time their objections to the bill as introduced in the Senate and House, leaving the details to be supplied in writing, as I have suggested. It does not seem necessary to us, unless it is desired by these representatives, to have each gentleman representing each manufactory make a speech to this committee. We think that it will be giving you all a fair opportunity to be heard to comply with the suggestion that has been made.

Mr. WEBB. The interests are about the same.

The CHAIRMAN. The interests are precisely the same, as I understand it, so that the objections must be along the same line.

Mr. CROMELIN. Mr. Chairman, may I merely state that as regards sound records as understood by a phonograph record, a graphophone. record, or a telegraphonic record, the interests may not be the same. We are standing together against the whole measure; but it must be fully understood that in so far as relates to the reproduction of sounds previously produced, there may be a distinction between a sound-producing machine and a sound-reproducing machine.

The CHAIRMAN. We think that those distinctions can be very well brought out in your written communications to the committee.

Mr. JOHN J. O'CONNELL. Mr. Chairman, perhaps if the suggestion of Mr. Cromelin were complied with--that is, that a recess be taken until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock-the various interests covering the music rolls and the phonographic records could get together and decide how to present their views to this committee, and in that way save time; and afterwards each could enlarge in his written brief on the points which he wishes to make.

Mr. CHANEY. That is so as to that particular thing, but if there is someone who wishes to be heard on some other point, why not hear him now?

The CHAIRMAN. We will postpone this question until to-morrow morning, and we will hope to finish that branch of the case, as well as the argument of Mr. Walker, to-morrow morning from 10 until 12.

Mr. O'CONNELL. As I stated to the chairman, the only thing in which my clients are interested is the music rolls, and that is the only question I personally wish to present to this committee. Perhaps the same question may be embraced in the points to be raised by the phonographic record people as well.

The CHAIRMAN. And I will say to you and the other gentlemen who are interested that you can divide that hour between yourselves as you may please, or you can select some representative to take the entire hour.

Mr. CURRIER. Mr. Remich, of New Hampshire, is here, and wishes to be heard briefly on another section of the bill.

STATEMENT OF DANIEL C. REMICH, ESQ., OF LITTLETON, N. H.

Mr. REMICH. Mr. Chairman, I appear here to-day in behalf of the stereoscopic view manufacturers of the country. There are at least twelve large manufacturers of this description of views. There may be some that are not familiar with that class of view; it is the double view that you look at through the stereoscope. The firm to which I belong is the founder of this business, D. W. Kilburn & Co., of Littleton, N. H., in the White Mountains. There are, as I say, now twelve large concerns, which are competitors. I appear here in behalf of the steroscopic view manufacturers, who approve of this bill, except one provision, and that is the provision as to the copyright fee.

Mr. CURRIER. What section is that, Mr. Remich?

Mr. REMICH. That is section 60. You will notice that under the old law the fee for copyrighting was 50 cents. The fee is now made a dollar, which advances that expense upon our industry 100 per cent.

Inasmuch as the report of the office shows that there is a good handsome surplus of cash received, more than enough to pay for all the expense of maintaining the Copyright Office, and in addition to that some 213,000 objects, which the Librarian says are of great value to the Nation-books, paintings, etc.—and in view of the small profit in the manufacture of our goods, and the fact that in the conduct of our business we have to make long-term contracts with general agents who handle our goods, selling them over the entire world, and that our contracts have been made for a long term of years, this 100 per cent advance upon our class of goods would practically put us out of business.

Mr. CHANEY. Suppose we except those views?

Mr. REMICH. I have no objection to that. You will see that they have tried to modify this provision somewhat by a section at the bottom of the twenty-fifth page of the conference report, in which they

say

Mr. CURRIER. The thirty-eighth page of the bill, gentlemen.

Mr. REMICH. The thirty-eighth page of the bill, in which they say: Provided further, That only one registration at one fee shall be required in the case of several volumes of the same book or periodical deposited at the same time, or of a numbered series of any work specified in subsections H, J, K, and L of section 5 of this act

Which includes our class of products

where such series represents the same subject with variances only in pose or composition, and the items composing it are deposited at the same time under one title with a view to a single registration.

As a lawyer, I suggest that would inject a dangerous element into our business, if we tried to copyright a series of pictures which we claimed only differed from each other in pose, and we should have more litigation on our hands in a month than you could shake a stick at. It would ruin any stereoscopic view concern in a little while.

As I suggested in our conference, that clause would apply satisfactorily to gallery work where a man, for instance, took my distit: guished friend, the Representative from my district, Mr. Currier, in a gallery, and took a side view, a front view, a view standing up, a