agent, and it would be so much to the interest of both parties that that should be so that that would be naturally the course that it would take. Mr. HINSHAW. Under existing law is the proprietor of the American copyright seriously injured by these importations!

Mr. OLIN. In ordinary cases, as I said, he is not seriously injuredthat is, in the case of popular books he is not substantially injured at all. He does not know how much he is injured, because there is no means of estimating the precise amount. It is an injury, but how great he does not know.

Mr. HINSHAW. It is a sufficient injury, so that you think it ought to be restricted?

Mr. OLIN. It is a sufficient injury, especially in the cases that I have spoken of, where valuable books that cost very much to produce and that have a limited field of sale are in question, and there it does repeatedly prevent such books from being published in America.

Those are the only two limitations which affect the general public until we come to this provision of the bill which increases the term of the copyrights in different cases. As to them, of course the main argument is made by the producer, the author, or artist. He is the one who wants that addition to the term, and it is a matter of no great importance to these general organizations of reproducers whom I represent, one or two of them permanently and some only for the moment. But we may fairly make these observations: First, I repeat what was very clearly put by the Librarian yesterday, that the copyright is simply in the form of an idea, as the patent right is in the idea itself, and that consequently there is never like oppression to the public from the monopoly.

If I have a patent on a needle with the eye in the point, nobody in the country can use that until my patent is out, and that is a great oppression. If I write a book about a needle with the eye in the point, or about anything else under the sun, my idea, for what it is worth, is at everybody's disposal when my book is published. He can not copy my form, but whatever good the idea does him in his own thinking or his own work he has. That is the first consideration which has always actuated Congress and all governments, so far as I know, in making the copyright term much more extensive than that of the patent.

Then the next is a practical consideration which I think must be within the knowledge of every member of the committee, and that is that for practical purposes in most cases the public gives up nothing by extending the term, for the reason that at the end of forty-two years a very great majority of copyrights I hesitate to say how large the majority would be-has become worthless. As a matter of fact, it is familiar to every member of the committee that people do not reproduce books that have fallen into the public domain by the expiry of the time of the copyright, except in very special cases of particularly popular works. So that in most instances the public would not be giving up anything really in adding to the end of this term a certain number of years.

Then, next, there is the consideration that in practice it is true that the public does now get the fullest opportunity to buy cheaply (which, I think, must be the only interest of the public as distinguished from the interest of the different producing classes) because books start at a certain price and at the end of a year they go down below that price.

At the end of two years there are new editions at perhaps half the price, and in a very few years the publisher is making every effort to attract the public by every reduction that is possible.

There is one other consideration that I think may possibly be alluded to, and that is that since this term was fixed, partly by the improvements of science and partly by changes in legislation, the actual value of a given term of copyright has diminished. Part of the value of a term of copyright was always that at the expiration of the term the owner of the copyright had the plates and had the books and could compete to great advantage with other people. His right, his privilege in that respect, has been largely taken away by these photographic processes which have come into use. It is not necessary for the man who wishes to publish a book to go to work and have type set for it. He simply takes the existing edition and he photographs it, and he does that with great cheapness. Perhaps there would be an answer to this suggestion that the public should have the advantage that would come from all such cheapening processes; but it seems to me that it could reply that Congress has prohibited the copyright owner from taking advantage of these processes, by saying that he at first must make his book, as long as the copyright exists, in the most expensive way, from plates made by American mechanics and who receive American wages; and consequently that he is handicapped from the beginning. I do not wish to press this argument unduly. It is something, it seems to me, that may be suggested to the committee, whether or not this committee is now to act with the same liberality which Congress showed when the existing term was fixed, if it would not necessarily in some degree extend the term by reason of the facts to which I have referred.

There is only one other, so far as I know, important extension of the right of copyright contained in this bill, and on its face it appears to be a matter of inadvertence. It is contained in section 8, where there are provisions A and B, on page 5. The present law of copyright allows a foreigner to take out a copyright if he is a resident in the United States, or if he is a citizen of one of those countries which allow similar privileges to citizens of the United States. Those are the two categories.

At first glance at A and B, in section 8, it would appear that those were intended to represent the same classes and to give precisely the same rights; but, apparently by inadvertence, in the second line of subdivision A the word which should, I think, be "and" has become "or," so that as it at present reads a foreigner, no matter where he lives, no matter whether the country of which he is a citizen gives similar rights to citizens of the United States or not, may, if he shall first or cotemporaneously publish his work within the limits of the United States, have a copyright. I am not here to say that that would not be a wise extension of the law. I am not here to say on behalf of any of the parties whom I represent that they would or would not oppose it. I do not know anything about their views. This extension of copyright is not an extension which has been discussed in the conference. I have no right to give any approval of it, even to the limited extent that I have a right to give an approval of this bill on behalf of any of these bodies whom I represent.

Mr. BETHUNE. Would not the interest of the publishers be safeguarded if the law provided that an individual may import one copy

of the foreign edition, but only after he has asked the proprietor of the American copyright to buy one for him and his request has been refused?

Mr. OLIN. If the committee chooses to put that in, I can see no harm in it at all. It seems to me that it will result in that, necessarily, if the American publisher is not actuated by his own interest, as he used to be prior to 1891, and as I think he would be again, and if he is not glad to import that copy from abroad. If he refused I think if anybody who is aggrieved should come to Congress, Congress would change the law instantly and compel the copyright proprietor to give consent; and if Congress thinks it right to put in that provision in the beginning nobody could complain. So that my answer is that I do not think anybody would object.

Mr. JOHNSON. I would like to ask if an American citizen traveling in Europe should at the time he was there purchase one of these editions, would it not be a hardship on him to compel him to forego the bringing of that copy into the United States without the consent of the American proprietor?

Mr. OLIN. Is that question addressed to me?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. OLIN. If a hardship, it is inflicted by the English custom-house at present in regard to these very Tauchnitz editions. It is one of the few things they are rigorous about, and I think members of this committee may have had experience with the English customs and their rule about that. But in this bill it is provided that where there are parts of libraries or books in baggage brought back by traveling people they shall be admitted. I think it is a question of de minimis. I think in the case of a man bringing back such a book it would be no hardship worthy of the consideration of Congress.

Mr. JOHNSON. All personal baggage is included also?

Mr. OLIN. Yes.

Mr. PUTNAM. For the information of Mr. Johnson, Mr. Chairman, I think that Mr. Olin was referring, in answer to that question, substantially to subsection 4, on page 25, which was supposed to take care of the person bringing in copies in his personal baggage.

Mr. Ogilvie is here from Chicago, but before his statement is made I wish to say that, as I understood, Colonel Olin spoke in two capacities; in the first place, giving some general expression in behalf of a certain group of organizations, and their substantial acquiescence in the bill; in the second place, as counsel specially for the book publishers, with reference to certain particular provisions, particularly this importation clause.

Mr. OLIN. Yes; and, finally, I wished merely to modify the general approval of the bill which I had given on behalf of all these organizations, by expressing my understanding that they considered the bill, as I supposed was intended, with "and" instead of "or" in the second line of subdivision A, in section 8, on page 5.

Mr. PUTNAM. In that latter capacity, the provisions of the bill as to which Colonel Olin spoke were those as to importations particularly affecting the interests of the libraries: and, considering what will be most helpful to the committee, it would seem to me appropriate, and I submit it as a suggestion, that as soon as possible after the statement that you have had from Colonel Olin in explanation of those provisions you have the statement from representatives here of the group of

libraries librarians that would dissent from the provision. Mr. Cutter is here, and, if I understand him rightly, his statement will be brief. Mr. Ogilvie, however, had been promised an opportunity to be heard early this morning. As I understood him, the oral statement that he proposes to make is an objection to certain provisions of the bill, and that he would be content with an opportunity for a tenminute statement, to be supplemented, if he chose, in writing, to go into the record.

pass.

STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. OGILVIE, ESQ., OF CHICAGO.

Mr. OGILVIE. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, as I understand that this bill is to take the place very largely of the copyright act of 1891, it may be proper to refer to some of the arguments that were advanced at that time as to why that particular bill should In furtherance of that idea, I read from The Question of Copyright, by George Haven Putnam, on page 103, in which it is said: It is admitted that the proposed act or any other of a similar nature will raise the price of the very cheap reprints of English stories yet to be written a few cents apiece. A pamphlet of that sort now costing 20 cents will then cost 25 cents. Of the additional price, 2 cents will go to the author and 3 cents will go into better paper, better print, and better binding. For the 5 cents of increased cost an American story will be furnished oftener than an English story, an American author will get pay for his labor, and the reader will get a book that is 100 per cent better than the old one in paper, print, and binding.

I submit that if an additional cost of 3 cents is to go into paper, print, and binding, and will produce a book that is 100 per cent better than the 20-cent book, and 2 cents of the increased price is to go to the author, that the publisher would receive no benefit whatever; and it is well to bear in mind that the disinterested patriots who requested the passage of the international copyright law did so for the purpose of benefiting not themselves, but the author of a book 2 cents per copy, and the producer of paper, printing, and binding 3 cents per copy, out of which they got nothing. It is the same gentlemen, as I understood it, who were sponsors for that bill who are, the sponsors for this. Twenty cents per copy for a book costing 3 cents to produce shows a profit somewhere of 666 per cent: and it is probable that they were satisfied with that percentage. As a basis for further remark along that line, I desire to draw your attention to section 13 on page 6 of the bill, as I have it here.

Mr. PUTNAM. That is the library copy.

Mr. OGILVIE. It is section 13 of the third paragraph [reading]:

Any person who, for the purpose of obtaining a copyright, shall knowingly be guilty of making a false affidavit as to his having complied with the above conditions shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars, and all of his rights and privileges under said copyright shall thereafter be forfeited.

The CHAIRMAN. For whom do you appear, Mr. Ogilvie?

Mr. OGILVIE. For myself as a publisher and for several other Chicago publishers, none of whom were represented at or invited to the conferences of which this bill is the result.

Mr. CHANEY. Had you no notice that there was going to be a conference!

Mr. OGILVIE. The first information that I had that there was a conference was from a gentleman representing Lyon & Healy, of Chicago, in the Manhattan Hotel in New York, last November. That was the

first intimation I had that there had been a conference.

I knew that

there were likely to be some, but I had no notice of their dates. Mr. CHANEY. We wanted you as well as everybody else.

Mr. OGILVIE. I knew nothing about it. I may say, also, that the first draft of this bill that I have seen was received in my office in Chicago Saturday morning last.

Again, on page 18 of the bill, section 25:

That any person who willfully and for profit shall infringe any copyright secured by this act, or who shall knowingly or willfully aid or abet such infringement or in any wise knowingly and willfully take part in any such infringement shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment for not exceeding one year or by a fine, etc.

It seems to me a little out of order for the gentlemen who are sponsors for this bill to make it possible for them to get a copyright on a book, and if they are not caught in making a false affidavit in securing it, that a man shall go to the penitentiary for a year for pirating that particular book. It will be rather difficult for one to prove, after a number of years, that a publisher who has made an affidavit to secure a copyright to which he really was not entitled had committed perjury in connection with the securing of that copyright; but the question as to one's piracy of the book is open and he that runs may read." It seems to me that there is a punishment there that they have applied to the wrong crime. If the man who makes a false affidavit were to go to the penitentiary for the year, I think it would protect the interests that desire protection in this country, in the form of labor, in the matter of setting up and manufacturing books wholly within the limits of the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand you to contend that the Librarian should be charged with any special duty in that regard, for the registry of the copyright?

Mr. OGILVIE. No, sir; the Librarian can not determine whether a man is making a false or correct affidavit, but if one makes a false affidavit he is the man who should go to the penitentiary and not the individual who pirates his book.

Mr. BONYNGE. Does not section 13 provide that the man who makes the affidavit shall be guilty of a misdemeanor?

Mr. OGILVIE. Yes; and the penalty therein provided is, "he shall be fined not exceeding one thousand dollars." That is all.

Mr. CURRIER. What is your suggestion?

Mr. OGILVIE. That you change the punishment.

Mr. CURRIER. And make it a penitentiary offense?

Mr. OGILVIE. Let them both go to the penitentiary, if either one goes. Mr. CURRIER. In both cases?

Mr. OGILVIE. In both cases, if necessary. Do not eliminate the publisher. I am a publisher, but if I have made a false affidavit, there is no reason why the man who pirates my book should go to the penitentiary and I should only have to pay a fine, if I am caught. I see no reason why a man should go to the penitentiary in either case, really. He may unwittingly infringe the copyright of a book. Mr. CURRIER. This says willfully.'

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Mr. OGILVIE. That is subject to the construction of the courts. We all know what that means.

Mr. CURRIER. No; it puts the burden of proof on the Government to show it beyond a reasonable doubt.