Mr. TATE. FHA rate is 52. I was hoping we could get it for 3 per cent but this seems impossible at present.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. The reason I asked this is because I recently introduced a bill, H.R. 13063, to make some 3 percent money availableMr. TATE. That would be excellent.

Mrs. SULLIVAN (continuing). To bona fide nonprofit organizations which would rehabilitate neighborhoods as well as houses. In my area, this is done separate from the city administration, but with the city fathers knowing what is going on and working with the nonprofit organization at least on the planning. It is my hope that we can get such a provision into any broad new housing bill. This would enable the very low-income people to buy housing they could afford-that they could never buy otherwise at the going rate of interest. Of course, it would have to be limited to families within certain incomes that would now be eligible for the rent supplement program and public housing. This would also work in cases where the poor family reaches that point in public housing where their income is just a little over the limitation and they have to leave to seek other housing.

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Mr. TATE. It would get a lot of houses back on the private housing per

market.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. And it would help the community, too, by giving to these people a stake in the upkeep and improvement of housing they will eventually own.

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Mr. TATE. This is exactly the reason we have set up this nonprofit atel housing corporation. It will start to provide decent shelter at an appropriate figure, a reasonable figure for many poor people now unable to afford it.

At $8,000 or $9,000, it is within reach of many people in Philadel phia. These people can hold their neighborhoods together and that is the important thing. We don't want to provide all of the needed single-family homes through our public housing program resulting in rows and rows of public housing units, but rather mix public and private efforts throughout the neighborhoods.

ment

I spent some time in a number of areas yesterday and something like this just lifts them dramatically. If we had something like you propose, it would certainly help many people. As a matter of fact, my wife told me the other day about a very fine old couple who have prob ably seen the best of their years but who have been able to get a new lease on life because they have been able to get a 3-percent loan. While they greatly appreciate the help, they also get the feeling that they are not stealing the money.

They are doing something toward it. As a matter of fact, they are in Congressman Barrett's district.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. This would cost the Government very little.

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Mr. TATE. I agree completely. But what are we to do in the meantime. That is why we have established this nonprofit organization. Mrs. SULLIVAN. The group in St. Louis, which started this rehabili tation program, started on a very, very modest scale. They have already rehabilitated and sold and installed families in 41 of these houses. Of course the mortgage rates they can get now have to be at the regular going rate, I think, 6 percent. The financing was done through savings and loans associations but the funds available to

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them are limited in any one neighborhood and the organization is having difficulty in constantly getting new money from private sources to try to do this financing. I think the plan in my bill would have to be carefully administered so that the 3-percent money would go only to the groups for whom it was intended.

On page 3, Mr. Mayor, you talk about the code enforcement program of your city and you say it calls for an expenditure of $7.5 million in the next 3 years. Is this financed by the city of Philadelphia?

Mr. TATE. It includes matching money, under the Federal program, in the 1965 Housing Act. Mr. O'Shea said we have applications underway for it but haven't received the money yet.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. If the code was really enforced, it would stop shady real estate people from selling property under misleading come-ons to people who do not understand what they are buying, and who are led to think they can rent out space to help carry the mortgage, when the code actually prohibits multiple occupancy.

Mr. TATE. It definitely stops the exploitation. There was a great deal of fear by many people in Philadelphia that strict code enforcement would drive people out. This has not been the case. We have found that strict code enforcement forces owner-occupants to bring their homes up to standard, but also gives them hope. As a result, the neighborhood picks up. At the same time, because of deferred maintenance and overcrowding in the war years, we are just about pt catching up to what we call the slum landlords. A great number of them are now going to jail because they did not comply with the housing code. Unfortunately, some of them have vacated and abandoned their property rather than make the required repairs and improvements. They abdicated the market. But they are no longer exploiting these poor people, in what we call the 10-percent money market. Mrs. SULLIVAN. Is there some way outside of the action of real estate boards to take action against this type real estate.

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Mr. TATE. I think you have to have good code administration in your city government. The real estate board will work with you but you have to give them the leadership.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Code enforcement is really one of the most important aspects of raising housing standards.

Mr. TATE. It is very important.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mayor Tate. Philadelphia is giving us lots of help and leadership, particularly in the subcommittee, I might add. Mr. BARRETT. Mr. Mayor, one question before I turn to the next member.

I understand yesterday, when you were making a survey of these
blighted areas, you ran into a ball team and they challenged your abil-
ity as a hitter.

Mr. TATE. Well, Congressman, I don't want to say that's true, but
neither am I going to plead the fifth amendment. I don't want to
bore you
with the story, but it so happens that I have been engaged in
some extracurricular religious work in the North Philadelphia area
and was shown a house which had been acquired by a church for the
students at Temple University and while there I was approached by

60-878-66-pt. 2- -24

the pastor of the church who took me into his church and showed me what they were doing by way of rehabilitation. This man, this pastor, is a monsignor in the Catholic Church. He left a very important post in the charities to lead this congregation which is nearly completely nonwhite and is now lifting the whole area up with his own hands and with money which he begs from the total community.

While showing me the inside of the church, he said, "Let's look on the outside." Outside we found some children playing what is known as stick ball, which I don't understand, except that I've seen the kids playing it. They use a large broomstick as a bat and they play with half of a rubber ball because they can't afford a whole rubber ball. I asked for the stick and said to one of the boys, "Toss one up." He tossed one up from the pitcher's position and to my amazement I picked it off and hit it over the fence. I didn't expect to hit it in the the first place, especially when you are wearing bifocals-but they invited me to try again and I guess we both thought I wouldn't hit it. Well, we tried again and I hit it again.

I am not saying I am a great home run hitter-I was raised in the era of Babe Ruth and some of the great home run hitters of America, but I'd like to hit a home run in that particular area, by providing not only good housing but good recreation facilities, so these kids won't have to play stick ball in the middle of a street which is no more than 15 feet wide and which has a lot of vacant houses on it. Incidentally. the street is named Watts Street-the same as the unfortunate area of Los Angeles which has come to represent so many of the problems we are facing in our older areas.

And when these kids knew that there was interest by their mayor, in this game of stick ball, they said, "If we only had a playground where we could play this out in the open without the restrictions of the street with the vacant houses, everybody would be happy." But the big concern was, one kid said, "I hope we get this before I get out of the eighth grade."

I don't want to discuss the bureaucratic problems of government but it does take so long for people who want so much sometimes. Mr. BARRETT. This would indicate that you still maintain your skill.

Mr. Reuss?

Mr. TATE. Just lucky, sir.

Mr. REUSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Th

As a prelude to this hearing, I took my family to Philadelphia yesterday afternoon and I can see why our chairman and the mayor are so proud of the great strides that Philadelphia has made in recent years. We took a look at not only the historic area, but at Society Hill, and it is really an inspiring setting and it has helped me to understandby your testimony a little better this morning.

You make a very convincing case that the Federal Government should help those who are willing to help themselves, and certainly Philadelphia has done a remarkable job in that.

I have one question about a matter that was not covered directly in your testimony and that concerns the research aspect of mass transit. Congressman Moorhead, Congressman Ashley of Ohio and myself

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urch and she have before the subcommittee an amendment which would require This man, is the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, within the next ft a very impe year, to come back to Congress with a 5-year research and developich is nearly ment and demonstration program in urban transport designed to identify and make possible whole new systems for urban transport, 1 community, and to review that program with State and city governments and with aid. "Let's our great universities.

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I would appreciate your comments whether you think that would be a useful program.

Mr. TATE. Congressman, I am delighted to know that you are inter

le rubber hested in that particular phase of urban life.

oss one up.

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You know, it takes a lot of courage to move out in front and to propose these programs which some people might refer to as pie in the

et to hit it. On the other hand, some fear they are subsidizing major indus

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tries in this country like the railroads and the transit companies. But this particular industry, in fact has been sick for many years and did not realize it until some 15 years ago when some of the mayors in America got together to do something about it.

But the industry is changing so quickly that what we have today and what we have 20 years from now will be entirely different.

There will be remarkable contrasts in the modes of transportation. So I feel that research would be very useful. But it is more than just a question of going 150 miles an hour on a well-constructed roadbed. I think we have got to take into consideration cities like Philadelphia which already has a network of rights-of-way which would be enormously costly to replace. In the bay area of San Francisco and Oakland, I understand it will require a bond issue of more than $900 million.

To provide the same kind of facilities in the Philadelphia metropolitan area would cost a similar sum of money. And yet we would not have the advantages we have today. We have what are known as silver el liners which have brought new people flocking to ride the commuter system from the suburbs into Philadelphia. They are coming into our stores, into our shops, and to their jobs, and it is easier for them to go out at night with the comfort of knowing that they don't have to ride in dusty old cars. I think this is just scratching the surface. I think research would be very helpful in developing other techniques of modern mass transportation.

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Chairman, I have one question.

One apprehension that has been expressed by other mayors, Mayor Tate, is the fact that if the demonstration cities program were to be enacted, it would gobble up as much as 80 to 100 percent of the urban renewal funds and, of course, if you are a demonstration city, this would be fine, but if you are one of the cities not selected as a demonstration city, there would be real concern whether it will impede the

progress.

I wondered if you cared to comment on that?

Mr. TATE. I believe that while this concern has been suggested, we must continue the present rate of spending that is now allocated to us by the Federal Government by way of urban development. We cannot afford to have one program operate to the detriment of the other.

I think what we do with respect to demonstration cities programs must be additional to what we are doing by way of urban development. Mr. HARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Tate.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BARRETT. Mr. Mayor, all time has expired and I am very grate ful for your coming here and for your statement which was very splendid.

Mr. TATE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to thank the members of the committee, not only for courteously listening to my presen tation but for giving me the advantage of their very searching ques tions which show not only an awareness of this problem but their desire to be helpful and I do appreciate them.

Mr. BARRETT. Thank you, sir.

The Chair has an announcement to make. There has been a change in the schedule of the hearings.

Mr. Collins, of Boston, will not be heard today.

The subcommittee stands in recess until 2 p.m. this afternoon when our first witness will be our great and distinguished former colleague. former chairman of the subcommittee, Albert Rains, of Alabama. (Whereupon, at 11:20 a.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Present: Representatives Barrett (presiding), Mrs. Sullivan, Reus Widnall, Mrs. Dwyer and Harvey.

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Mr. BARRETT. The committee will come to order, please. Our first witness this afternoon is our old friend and distinguished former colleague, Albert Rains, of Gadsden, Ala. The House of Representatives and the Senate, as well, are filled with outstanding Representatives of our people, but we all know that among Members of the House and Senate that a relative few stand out as giants among legislators. Al Rains was and is one of those men. This very subcommittee which meets here today is his creation. He made legislative record in the housing field that will probably never again be matched. In the Congress he combined a superior intelligence with a mastery of the legislative process, with a superior knowledge in mat ters concerning economics and finance, and above all, with an understanding of our country's needs and the legislative tools necessary to meet those needs.

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We all miss his presence on this committee very deeply and we are constantly trying to learn from his outstanding record of accomplishment. Al, please come forward and let us all extend our greetings

to you.

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LOCAL

I would like to point out to the subcommittee that Mr. Rains s appearing here today as Chairman of the Committee on Historic Preservation and while all of us will be tempted to ask him questions about the general field of housing legislation he will address his re marks today solely on H.R. 13790, a bill introduced by our esteemed colleague, William Widnall, which deals with the preservation and maintenance of historic buildings, and so I would ask the subcommittee members to confine their questioning to this single subject. (H.R. 13790 follows:)