taxpayers' money to conserve our salmon resources so they can be caught by the nationals of another country. I think it would be of great assistance to the committee if you would make some statement this morning with regard to the policy of the United States to achieve the objectives of this legislation, apart from an action of legislation. I think that would be particularly helpful. I notice you have done that on several occasions, but it would be helpful to the committee if you had something to say to that specific point. Mr. HARRIMAN. Mr. Chairman, all I can say on the question of the objectives of the bill is that the objectives of this bill will be kept before the administration, the State Department, in our negotiations with the Japanese and every effort will be made to achieve its objectives through negotiation. Whether that can be achieved or not, I cannot say; but I can say very firmly we have a better chance of achieving those objectives than by the method this bill sets out. I hope the committee recognizes I have the greatest respect and admiration for the work this committee is doing for conservation. One of the very serious questions in international negotiation is the protection of the fish in the world. Our interest in salmon is very great in the Pacific, but there are other fishing problems in other parts of the world, and I think our influence should be to obtain a greater respect for conservation. In fact, I do not think we ourselves are doing as much as we should in some ways. That has to be done through international negotiation. As more countries begin to fish, which they are doing, there are going to be increasing problems in the world. The negotiation through international understanding of worldwide conservation of fish is a very vital matter for our country and for the world as a whole. Populations are increasing, the feeding of people is of major importance. Fishing has not been fully exploited in certain parts of the world, and it is being overexploited in others. The objectives of this committee I would hope would be a guiding objective for all our activities in our worldwide negotiations on fishing. Mr. DINGELL. Mr. Secretary, the Chair is very grateful to you for your kindness in appearing this morning. I recall very well your distinguished record of public service, and I remember your friendship with my deceased father, who came to Washington with you in the early days of the New Deal. I remember how he spoke of your hard work and how you were one of the people who would be found in his office early and late. I remember in the early days that he on occasion did have opportunity to visit with you. I also remember your distinguished service as U.S. Ambassador to Moscow and other distinguished positions in the Federal Government and also your great contribution as Governor of the great State of New York. I am sure that the committee has excellent reason to feel that while these matters are in your hands the interests of the United States will be protected. Mr. Secretary, we are grateful to you for your kindness in appearing before us this morning. Mr. HARRIMAN. I am grateful for those kind words. Speaking of early and late, I have been very impressed and to some extent disturbed by the number of hours the State Department officials are putting in, to which I have to conform. But you can be sure that the State Department has a very loyal and efficient group of men who are attempting day and night to work for the interests of our country. I know it has been popular to take cracks at the State Department, but I want to say a good word for the State Department from my experience in the last year and a half since I have been privileged to return to the Government service. Mr. DINGELL. Are there any other Members of Congress here this morning who desire to be heard on this measure? Mrs. Hansen, will you come forward, please. STATEMENT OF HON. JULIA BUTLER HANSEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON-Resumed Mrs. HANSEN. Mr. Chairman, as a Representative of a district in which commercial fisheries are a vital economic factor, I deeply appreciate the opportunity to comment on two bills to be heard before your subcommittee-both of which would greatly benefit our fishing resources. The bill, H.R. 9547, which proposes to restrict the import of fishery products from nations that do not observe conservation practices is directed, of course, at unrestricted Japanese fishing in the North Pacific waters. It is an undeniable fact that in these ocean areas inhabited by large quantities of immature salmon of North American origin or intermingled North American salmon runs, Japanese fishermen are taking millions of fish with nets designed to catch maximum numbers, regardless of size. The treaty signed by our country, Japan, and Canada has not prevented this from happening. Although we are bound to Japan by ties of friendship, mutual security and trade, it appears that only through import regulation can we effectively safeguard this resource and keep it on a sustained-yield basis. The salmon resource can be destroyed by overfishing. We cannot forever subject American fishermen to restraints for the benefit of a foreign nation which is competing with them for both the resource and market. I urge approval of H.R. 9547. Mr. DINGELL. Thank you, Mrs. Hansen. (Whereupon, the subcommittee proceeded to the consideration of other business.) (The following was furnished for insertion:) STATEMENT OF REPRESENTATIVE THOMAS M. PELLY (FIRST DISTRICT, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to make this statement in favor of H.R. 9547 which is legislation introduced by me to discourage noncompliance with international fishery conservation agreements in connection with the North Pacific Ocean and Pacific coast-spawned salmon. For many years the United States and Canada have cooperated in a number of ways to conserve the fishery resources of the North Pacific. They have severely restricted the fishing by their own fishermen in efforts to sustain the runs of salmon. Yet, year by year, foreign fishermen have been harvesting in international waters an increasing portion of North American-spawned fish using methods and means which do not conform to salmon conservation. My bill would encourage international conservation and supplement a tripartite treaty which went into effect in 1953 between the United States, Canada, and Japan. This treaty provided certain rules and established the 175th meridian west as the line east of which the Japanese were to abstain from fishing in order to protect North American stocks of salmon. At that time it was not known that salmon of American origin were located west of that meridian but since 1953 research has established that our salmon are found to the west of it in large quantities Canadian and American fishermen are denied the privilege of taking salmon by net in the ocean outside the 3-mile limit because in inland coastal waters a careful check can be made on the number of fish taken in relationship to the number of salmon allowed to escape and enter fresh water streams to reproduce So under American and Canadian conservation regulations an ample number of fish are assured to reseed the various salmon runs and the fishery resources are protected. However, in spite of provisions of the treaty the Japanese Government has failed to agree to America salmon conservation proposals through the International North Pacific Fisheries Commission. The Japanese violate sound conservation practices by overfishing and the use of gear and techniques which are contrary to sound conservation. The Japanese fishing fleet has consistently and indiscriminately taken American-spawned red salmon in the North Pacific Ocean. They have stubbornly refused to recognize scientific findings and have misinterpreted our treaty while American fishermen have been making great economic sacrifices to insure sufficient escapement to conserve this important resource. Meanwhile there is a new threat to American conservation effort. The Special Committee on Tripartite (Canada, Japan, United States) Fisheries Problems, organized by the Japan Fisheries Society, held its first meeting on August 9, and formally decided to file a petition to the Japanese Government strongly urging that the absention principle of the present Japan-Canada-United States North Pacific Fisheries Convention be abolished. In attendance at the meeting were leading members of the Japanese salmon industry, including fishermen's unions and associations. Japanese fishing interests may succeed in getting their Government to abandon the principle of the treaty under which Japan had agreed to abstain from taking North American salmon. H.R. 9547 would stop the importation and sale of salmon in any form from any nation whose nationals fish with nets in areas where occur substantial quantities of immature salmon in the North Pacific Ocean. Under the provisions of my bill, however, the law would become inoperative with regard to any country by certification by the Secretary of the Interior to the House and Senate committees of Congress having jurisdiction that such fishing activities are not likely to have a substantial adverse effect upon the conservation of North American salmon, also when the Secretary of State certifies that under international convention adequate conservation measures have been adopted. Mr. Chairman, I strongly urge that H.R. 9547 be reported favorably by the committee. ALASKA FISHERMEN'S UNION, Re H.R. 9547. Congressman TOM PELLY, Washington, D.C. DEAR MR. PELLY: We have at hand your telegram notifying us that hearings on H.R. 9547 have been scheduled for September 11 in Washington, D.C. Due to the short notice and previous commitments, we will be unable to attend that hearing; however, we believe that, conservationwise, H.R. 9547 is one of the more important bills to come before the Congress. In spite of a treaty between the United States, Canada, and Japan which was designed to safeguard salmon of North American origin in North Pacific waters, the Japanese have taken millions of North American salmon in their high seas fishing, and are continuing to do so. As has been previously expressed on many occasions, the U.S. fishermen are operating under very strict regulations designed to safeguard the resource and keep it on a sustained yield basis. Not so with the Japanese who have practically no restrictions as to their salmon fishing and can use gear that is designed to catch the maximum number of salmon. While on the one hand the United States pro vides adequate escapement and sees to it that net meshes are sized so as to allow immature fish to escape, on the other hand the Japanese are under no restrictions and take matures and immatures indiscriminately by using gear, as previously stated, designed to catch the maximum numbers. As a matter of fact, nets are now being used by the Japanese which are outlawed in both the United States and Canada, due to their efficiency in catching fish. H.R. 9547 is a bill designed to protect conservation. The American people are conservation minded and that can be proven by the efforts of our Government in spending millions upon millions of dollars on scientific fishery exploration and in formulating regulations which safeguard the resource. It is not too much to ask of a foreign nation to comply with these rules and regulations-particularly so when the Japanese are desirous of marketing a good percentage of their catches within the United States. We are talking about a resource which is of extreme importance to the United States, as far as its nutritional and economic values are concerned. Due to the habits of the salmon which feed and grow to maturity on the open ocean, it is not within the province of any one particular government to be able to fully control the catching of this fish; hence, the need of treaties and agreements with such countries as may be engaged in high seas fishing for salmon. A coastal nation which has the responsibility of maintaining the resource by restricting the catches of its fishermen and by otherwise adopting and enforcing regulations which provide for a permanent supply, should have rights, as far as this specie of fish is concerned, which would supersede rights of foreign nations to freely engage in fishing on this specie in international waters. It is recognized, or at least it should be, that the salmon would not be present on the open ocean if it were not protected by the coastal country where it originates. Therefore, those foreign nations which had exploited the resource under the pretext that fish in international waters belong to "first come first served," have to be restrained from ignoring good conservation principles, and one of such restraints which can be imposed is embodied in the bill now pending before this committee. There are persons within these United States who do not care about conservation, nor do they worry about employment opportunities or the food supply of our Nation, as long as they can make a profit from goods imported from abroad. Of course, it is to be expected that a nation directly concerned, such as Japan, is also going to oppose this legislation, through its American representatives. We have states before and we reiterate our position at this time that we are not desirous of inflicting any hardship upon any nation with which we deal and trade. Particularly, we are not interested in making any difficulties for nations which are friends of the United States; however, we believe that natural resources must be safeguarded and conserved for the use not only of the present generation but coming generations as well. We believe that Congress has a definite responsibility to take such actions and enact such legislation as may be necessary to safeguard our conservation efforts. The salmon resource is one which can be destroyed by overfishing, and it has been only through most strenuous efforts over the past several years that we have been able to maintain it. It is a well-known fact that fishery technology has developed new methods and more modern ships and the open ocean can be fished as efficiently as any coastal waters. There are definite indications that the Japanese, even though they are taking millions of American fish, are not entirely satisfied and would like to take more. We cannot forever ask the American fishermen to conserve the resource for the benefit of a foreign nation, but that is what happens unless, through legislation, we can protect our rights so that those who do the sacrificing can at least get a share of the benefits. The members of the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries have a good knowledge of our fishery problems. In view of their knowledge of existing conditions in the North Pacific waters, and because of our commitments to conservation, we ask that H.R. 9457 be reported out favorably by the committee. Yours very truly, GEORGE JOHANSEN, Secretary-Treasurer. (Whereupon, the committee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, September 12, 1962.) SALMON LEGISLATION WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 1962 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE ON FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE CONSERVATION OF THE COMMITTEE ON MERCHANT MARINE AND FISHERIES, The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m., in room 219, Old House Office Building, Hon. John D. Dingell (acting chairman) presiding. Mr. DINGELL. The Subcommittee on Fisheries and Wildlife Conservation will come to order. This morning we are hearing witnesses. on H.R. 11343 and identical bills, and also H.R. 9547. We have scheduled a number of witnesses this morning. First we will hear from Donald McKernan, Director of the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries, to testify, I believe, on H.R. 9547. Is that correct? Mr. McKERNAN. Yes, sir. Mr. DINGELL. It has been suggested, in view of your very brief time, you might choose to summarize your statement in discussion of H.R. 9547. The Chair is happy to have you, and I am sure the committee will be happy to have any statement you might choose to make. STATEMENT OF DONALD MCKERNAN, DIRECTOR, BUREAU OF COMMERCIAL FISHERIES; ACCOMPANIED BY RALPH CURTISS AND WILLIAM TERRY, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Mr. McKERNAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have two additional specialists from the Department, Mr. Ralph Curtiss and Mr. William Terry. Mr. DINGELL. They are welcome to come to sit beside you. The report of the Department, Mr. Chairman, approves the purposes of H.R. 9547 but suggests that substitute legislation, which incorporates certain changes we think strengthen and better accomplish the purpose of this bill, should be considered by the committee itself. Essentially, Mr. Chairman, the problems in the North Pacific that we face are of two kinds. One of these is strictly a conservation problem. That involves the fact that in addition to our inshore fishery, which takes place near the mouths of rivers after the races of salmon have been separated, there is an offshore fishery which has developed since 1952. The Japanese have not historically taken salmon in the eastern North Pacific Ocean, but in 1952 they started a large high seas fishery which at the present time is taking in the 55 |