them are limited in any one neighborhood and the organization is having difficulty in constantly getting new money from private sources to try to do this financing. I think the plan in my bill would have to be carefully administered so that the 3-percent money would go only to the groups for whom it was intended.

On page 3, Mr. Mayor, you talk about the code enforcement program of your city and you say it calls for an expenditure of $7.5 million in the next 3 years. Is this financed by the city of Philadelphia?

Mr. TATE. It includes matching money, under the Federal program, in the 1965 Housing Act. Mr. O'Shea said we have applications underway for it but haven't received the money yet.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. If the code was really enforced, it would stop shady real estate people from selling property under misleading come-ons to people who do not understand what they are buying, and who are led to think they can rent out space to help carry the mortgage, when the code actually prohibits multiple occupancy.

Mr. TATE. It definitely stops the exploitation. There was a great deal of fear by many people in Philadelphia that strict code enforcement would drive people out. This has not been the case. We have found that strict code enforcement forces owner-occupants to bring their homes up to standard, but also gives them hope. As a result, the neighborhood picks up. At the same time, because of deferred maintenance and overcrowding in the war years, we are just about catching up to what we call the slum landlords. A great number of them are now going to jail because they did not comply with the housing code. Unfortunately, some of them have vacated and abandoned their property rather than make the required repairs and improvements. They abdicated the market. But they are no longer exploiting these poor people, in what we call the 10-percent money market. Mrs. SULLIVAN. Is there some way outside of the action of real estate boards to take action against this type real estate.

Mr. TATE. I think you have to have good code administration in your city government. The real estate board will work with you but you have to give them the leadership.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Code enforcement is really one of the most important aspects of raising housing standards.

Mr. TATE. It is very important.

Mrs. SULLIVAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, Mayor Tate. Philadelphia is giving us lots of help and leadership, particularly in the subcommittee, I might add. Mr. BARRETT. Mr. Mayor, one question before I turn to the next member.

I understand yesterday, when you were making a survey of these blighted areas, you ran into a ball team and they challenged your ability as a hitter.

Mr. TATE. Well, Congressman, I don't want to say that's true, but neither am I going to plead the fifth amendment. I don't want to bore you with the story, but it so happens that I have been engaged in some extracurricular religious work in the North Philadelphia area and was shown a house which had been acquired by a church for the students at Temple University and while there I was approached by

60-878-66-pt. 2-24

the pastor of the church who took me into his church and showed me what they were doing by way of rehabilitation. This man, this pastor, is a monsignor in the Catholic Church. He left a very important post in the charities to lead this congregation which is nearly completely nonwhite and is now lifting the whole area up with his own hands and with money which he begs from the total community.

While showing me the inside of the church, he said, "Let's look on the outside." Outside we found some children playing what is known as stick ball, which I don't understand, except that I've seen the kids playing it. They use a large broomstick as a bat and they play with half of a rubber ball because they can't afford a whole rubber ball. I asked for the stick and said to one of the boys, "Toss one up.” He tossed one up from the pitcher's position and to my amazement I picked it off and hit it over the fence. I didn't expect to hit it in the the first place, especially when you are wearing bifocals but they invited me to try again and I guess we both thought I wouldn't hit it. Well, we tried again and I hit it again.

I am not saying I am a great home run hitter-I was raised in the era of Babe Ruth and some of the great home run hitters of America, but I'd like to hit a home run in that particular area, by providing not only good housing but good recreation facilities, so these kids won't have to play stick ball in the middle of a street which is no more than 15 feet wide and which has a lot of vacant houses on it. Incidentally. the street is named Watts Street-the same as the unfortunate area of Los Angeles which has come to represent so many of the problems we are facing in our older areas.

And when these kids knew that there was interest by their mayor, in this game of stick ball, they said, "If we only had a playground where we could play this out in the open without the restrictions of the street with the vacant houses, everybody would be happy." But the big concern was, one kid said, "I hope we get this before I get out of the eighth grade."

I don't want to discuss the bureaucratic problems of government but it does take so long for people who want so much sometimes. Mr. BARRETT. This would indicate that you still maintain your skill.

Mr. Reuss?

Mr. TATE. Just lucky, sir.

Mr. REUSS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As a prelude to this hearing, I took my family to Philadelphia yesterday afternoon and I can see why our chairman and the mayor are so proud of the great strides that Philadelphia has made in recent years. We took a look at not only the historic area, but at Society Hill, and it is really an inspiring setting and it has helped me to understand your testimony a little better this morning.

You make a very convincing case that the Federal Government should help those who are willing to help themselves, and certainly Philadelphia has done a remarkable job in that.

I have one question about a matter that was not covered directly in your testimony and that concerns the research aspect of mass transit. Congressman Moorhead, Congressman Ashley of Ohio and myself

have before the subcommittee an amendment which would require the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, within the next year, to come back to Congress with a 5-year research and development and demonstration program in urban transport designed to identify and make possible whole new systems for urban transport, and to review that program with State and city governments and with our great universities.

I would appreciate your comments whether you think that would be a useful program.

Mr. TATE. Congressman, I am delighted to know that you are interested in that particular phase of urban life.

You know, it takes a lot of courage to move out in front and to propose these programs which some people might refer to as pie in the sky. On the other hand, some fear they are subsidizing major industries in this country like the railroads and the transit companies. But this particular industry, in fact has been sick for many years and did not realize it until some 15 years ago when some of the mayors in America got together to do something about it.

But the industry is changing so quickly that what we have today and what we have 20 years from now will be entirely different.

There will be remarkable contrasts in the modes of transportation. So I feel that research would be very useful. But it is more than just a question of going 150 miles an hour on a well-constructed roadbed. I think we have got to take into consideration cities like Philadelphia which already has a network of rights-of-way which would be enormously costly to replace. In the bay area of San Francisco and Oakland, I understand it will require a bond issue of more than $900 million.

To provide the same kind of facilities in the Philadelphia metropolitan area would cost a similar sum of money. And yet we would not have the advantages we have today. We have what are known as silver liners which have brought new people flocking to ride the commuter system from the suburbs into Philadelphia. They are coming into our stores, into our shops, and to their jobs, and it is easier for them to go out at night with the comfort of knowing that they don't have to ride in dusty old cars. I think this is just scratching the surface. I think research would be very helpful in developing other techniques of modern mass transportation.

Mr. HARVEY. Mr. Chairman, I have one question.

One apprehension that has been expressed by other mayors, Mayor Tate, is the fact that if the demonstration cities program were to be enacted, it would gobble up as much as 80 to 100 percent of the urban renewal funds and, of course, if you are a demonstration city, this would be fine, but if you are one of the cities not selected as a demonstration city, there would be real concern whether it will impede the progress.

I wondered if you cared to comment on that?

Mr. TATE. I believe that while this concern has been suggested, we must continue the present rate of spending that is now allocated to us by the Federal Government by way of urban development. We cannot afford to have one program operate to the detriment of the other.

I think what we do with respect to demonstration cities programs must be additional to what we are doing by way of urban development. Mr. HARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Tate.

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BARRETT. Mr. Mayor, all time has expired and I am very grateful for your coming here and for your statement which was very splendid.

Mr. TATE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do want to thank the members of the committee, not only for courteously listening to my presentation but for giving me the advantage of their very searching questions which show not only an awareness of this problem but their desire to be helpful and I do appreciate them.

Mr. BARRETT. Thank you, sir.

The Chair has an announcement to make. There has been a change in the schedule of the hearings.

Mr. Collins, of Boston, will not be heard today.

The subcommittee stands in recess until 2 p.m. this afternoon when our first witness will be our great and distinguished former colleague, former chairman of the subcommittee, Albert Rains, of Alabama. (Whereupon, at 11:20 a.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Present: Representatives Barrett (presiding), Mrs. Sullivan, Reuss, Widnall, Mrs. Dwyer and Harvey.

Mr. BARRETT. The committee will come to order, please.

Our first witness this afternoon is our old friend and distinguished former colleague, Albert Rains, of Gadsden, Ala. The House of Representatives and the Senate, as well, are filled with outstanding Representatives of our people, but we all know that among the 535 Members of the House and Senate that a relative few stand out as giants among legislators. Al Rains was and is one of those men. This very subcommittee which meets here today is his creation. He made a legislative record in the housing field that will probably never again be matched. In the Congress he combined a superior intelligence with a mastery of the legislative process, with a superior knowledge in matters concerning economics and finance, and above all, with an understanding of our country's needs and the legislative tools necessary to meet those needs.

We all miss his presence on this committee very deeply and we are constantly trying to learn from his outstanding record of accomplishment. Al, please come forward and let us all extend our greetings

to you.

I would like to point out to the subcommittee that Mr. Rains is appearing here today as Chairman of the Committee on Historie Preservation and while all of us will be tempted to ask him questions about the general field of housing legislation he will address his remarks today solely on H.R. 13790, a bill introduced by our esteemed colleague, William Widnall, which deals with the preservation and maintenance of historic buildings, and so I would ask the subcommittee members to confine their questioning to this single subject. (H.R. 13790 follows:)

[H.R. 13790, 89th Cong., 2d sess.]

A BILL To provide financial and other aid, under the Housing Act of 1949 and related Federal programs, to encourage and assist in the preservation and maintenance of historic structures

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

TITLE I-PRESERVATION OF HISTORIC STRUCTURES AS PART OF URBAN RENEWAL PROJECTS

SEC. 101. (a) Section 110(b) of the Housing Act of 1949 is amended by striking out "and" immediately before "(2)", and by inserting before the period at the end thereof the following: ", and (3) may include provision for the acquisition by the local public agency of structures which such agency determines to be of historic or architectural value and the sale or other disposition of such structures to public bodies, private organizations, or other persons which will renovate and maintain such structures for historic purposes".

(b) The first sentence of section 110 (c) of such Act is amended by inserting after "rehabilitation or conservation" the following: "(including preservation of historic structures)".

ACQUISITION AND REHABILITATION OF HISTORIC STRUCTURES UNDER URBAN RENEWAL DEMONSTRATION PROGRAM

SEC. 102. Section 110(c) (8) of the Housing Act of 1949 is amended—

(1) by striking out "of structures which are located in the urban renewal area and which, under the urban renewal plan, are to be repaired or rehabilitated for dwelling use or related facilities" and inserting in lieu thereof the following: "of structures, located in the urban renewal area, which (under the urban renewal plan) are to be repaired or rehabilitated for dwelling use or related facilities, or which are determined by the local public agency to be of historic or architectural value and (under such plan) are to be renovated and maintained for historic purposes"; and

(2) by striking out "for such purposes" and inserting in lieu thereof "for the purpose of repair or rehabilitation for dwelling use or related facilities".

RELOCATION AND PRESERVATION OF HISTORIC STRUCTURES

SEC. 103. Section 110 (c) (9) of the Housing Act of 1949 is amended to read as follows:

"(9) relocating within or outside the project area a structure which the local public agency determines to be of historic or architectural value and which is owned by or will be disposed of to a public body, private organization, or other person which will renovate and maintain such structure for historic purposes."

LOCAL GRANT-IN-AID CREDIT FOR PURCHASE AND REHABILITATION OF HISTORIC STRUCTURES

SEC. 104. Section 110 (d) of the Housing Act of 1949 is amended by inserting immediately before the last sentence the following new sentence: "Local grant-in-aid' also includes the cost of acquiring and rehabilitating or restoring any structure located in the urban renewal area which is determined by such agency to be of historic or architectural value and which will be maintained on a nonprofit basis for historic purposes."

GRANTS TO NATIONAL TRUST FOR HISTORIC PRESERVATION TO COVER RESTORATION COSTS

SEC. 105. Section 115 of the Housing Act of 1949 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

"(c) The Secretary is authorized to make grants to the National Trust for Historic Preservation from funds available for rehabilitation grants under subsection (a), on such terms and conditions and in such amounts (not exceeding $90,000 with respect to any one structure) as he deems appropriate, to cover