sures and consequent change of ownership. This increased the number who were compelled to rent land.

Any attack on the problem, therefore, must be Nation-wide in scope and not limited to any particular area.

The committee is anxious to have suggestions from anyone who is interested and who can make practical suggestions for working out this very important problem.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Mr. Chairman, I presume from your suggestion that we are considering H. R. 8 primarily in this hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. H. R. 8 and also the previous confidential Committee Print No. 2.

Mr. ANDRESEN. I would like to suggest this, Mr. Chairman, that before we hear other witnesses that the Chairman himself, who is the author of H. R. 8 make a brief statement in regard to the workings of the bill as prepared and explain just how a tenant may become a farm owner. That will preface everything that takes place and no doubt will give us a clearer idea of just how it will work. The CHAIRMAN. I will state that the provisions in H. R. 8, with some more or less minor changes, are largely the provisions that are included in the confidential report no. 2, which as you recall, were discussed and considered several days last session.

Now this bill is presented. I could do as you suggest, Mr. Andresen, but we have witnesses here from Georgia and from Virginia, and also from the Department of Agriculture, who have come here for this purpose. It would take some little time to go over all the different provisions in the bill and that would probably involve some discussion, and I believe it would be better to hear these gentlemen first. However, we will, of course, go over the provisions thoroughly before the bill is finally drafted in the form in which it is to be presented.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Will the chairman place that explanation in the first part of the hearing?

The CHAIRMAN. I will be glad to have that done.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest this, that none of the witnesses take up the time of the committee in telling us about the needs of this kind of legislation, or how badly it is needed, but confine their remarks to giving us some idea of how it can be done from a practical standpoint. I think everyone knows the need of it. The CHAIRMAN. I hope they will do that.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Rather than taking up our time telling us about how poor the tenant farmer is, for instance.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it would take days to go into that phase of the discussion.

We have asked representatives of the Department of Agriculture to come here and testify, and had planned to start the hearings yesterday but on account of the death of Congressman Montague it was necessary to readjust the program. We have with us this morning Mr. J. F. Jackson, general agricultural agent, of Savannah, Ga.; and also Mr. Wilson Gee, professor of economics at the University of Virginia. These two gentlemen represent the Association of Southern Agricultural Workers. I believe both of them are anxious to get back home. They had expected to be able to testify yesterday. I would like to hear them briefly, and let them get their ideas in the record.

Mr. GILCHRIST. Mr. Chairman, while it is true as suggested by our colleague that the committee does not need much information about the necessity of this thing, nevertheless it may be that the country does, and something in the record on that matter that would be beneficial should be available in the hearings. No doubt many Members of Congress also would like to know about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and I will state in that connection that the hearings which were held last year will be made a part of this record, and those hearings go into that matter thoroughly. Of course, the committee will discuss those features also. Some of that will come into the hearings necessarily, but I believe the hearings that have heretofore been conducted will largely cover those phases.

Mr. TOBEY. Mr. Chairman, when do you expect the President's committee to make its report?

The CHAIRMAN. Perhaps Mr. Wilson could give us some idea about that. As I understand, it will be about the first of February. We were in hopes they would be ready by the time the committee started hearings, but no doubt they will be available before we have completed.

Mr. WILSON. It is anticipated, Mr. Chairman, they will be available very shortly.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very anxious to have any suggestions which the President's committee makes.

Mr. TOBEY. Mr. Chairman, do you have any idea what the President's committee is going to report?

The CHAIRMAN. I cannot speak for the committee on that. We will go into that and take up the suggestions made when they become available.

We will be glad to hear from you gentlemen, in such order as you care to speak.

Mr. Jackson, do you wish to proceed first?

STATEMENT OF J. F. JACKSON, GENERAL AGRICULTURAL AGENT, CENTRAL OF GEORGIA RAILWAY, SAVANNAH, GA.

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee: My name is J. F. Jackson. I am general agricultural agent of the Central of Georgia Railway, which has an agricultural department, along with many other railroads, who are endeavoring to assist and help in the same sort of work that is being done by extension forces in that section. I have been engaged in that work for 27 years, and we railroad men in this sort of work are adopted as members of the Association of Southern Agricultural Workers. I am chairman of a committee of this Association of Southern Agricultural Workers which takes in hundreds of men and women who are regarded as agricultural leaders in the South and who work with the farmers. This committee stands for increased farm ownership, and we are interested in effecting the purposes of this bill. This committee was appointed 3 years ago and we have been studying and working along the line of trying to figure out some way to make more farm owners, and I want to say that the Association of Southern Agricultural Workers will hold its thirty-eighth annual meeting at Nashville next week. Our committee had prepared resolutions, and these resolutions

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which we intend to submit at that meeting are along the lines that my remarks will cover.

Now, as a member of this committee, Dean Schaub, who is the dean and director for North Carolina and I made statements to the Seventy-fourth Congress at the hearings on the Bankhead bill which were favorable to this legislation. We urged the passage of that bill. That, it seemed to me, was a step in the right direction, though we did not entirely agree with all of the provisions and all of the ideas contained in it.

We feel the members of the Association we represent have worked with and for farmers so long that we are entitled to ask that their views be heard in regard to some features of the legislation. These resolutions which we have prepared relate to some features of the bill which is pending before you and which is a follow-up of the bill presented in the last session-the Bankhead bill. This resolution was to be submitted and passed and referred to your committee of the House, and the committee in the Senate which will be asked to hear us, and that will be done next week. But, this resolution will give you some of our views. I am not going to read it, but will follow it in the short time that I thave.

We are convinced there is a large class of experienced farmers who lack only easier terms of purchase to become successful farm owners, such terms as are not now offered by private or public capital, and we believe that if Government loans can be made to these men at a low rate of interest, with payments on an amortized basis covering such number of years that the annual payments will be within the possibilities of the land to earn under normal conditions, these men will become independent farm owners who will prove an asset to the Nation.

We realize the success of any law intended to increase the number of successful farm owners must in the last analysis depend upon the personal character, farming ability, thrift, and industry of the beneficiaries of the act.

We, therefore, recommend that the terms of the law governing the selection of beneficiaries should be so drawn as to uphold the administrators of the act in such thorough and careful examination of the farming experience and qualifications of applicants as will insure the acceptance of only those who can furnish evidence of the possession of characteristics and managerial ability that will enable them to win through to the ultimate aim of ownership.

We believe that to qualify for an opportunity under the proposed legislation an applicant who has farmed 5 years or more should be required, as proof that he deserves consideration, to show that he has been able to acquire, free of debt, in addition to his household goods, the necessary work stock and equipment for ordinary operation of at least a "one-horse" farm. That is southern expression. We believe that careful examination of applicants is necessary to avoid a serious danger of individual heartbreaks, discouragement, and failure that would surely result from such liberal interpretation of the act as might admit persons, so lacking in the qualifications for success, that they might fail.

We feel certain that any considerable percentage of such failures would surely delay, if not destroy, an admirable attempt to establish

the future agricultural prosperity of this Nation on a safe foundation of ownership of the land.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Will the gentleman yield for a question?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Have you any suggestion to make as to the nature of the committee who is to select these applicants?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I want to and I will take the opportunity to enlarge on that if the committee wishes at this time.

Mr. ANDRESEN. We would like to have your opinion on that. Mr. JACKSON. There is a gentleman here, Mr. Wilson Gee, from the University of Virginia, who is a member of the committee, and he will make a supplementary statement covering that.

Mr. ANDRESEN. Very well.

Mr. BOILEAU. May I ask the gentleman a question?

Mr. FULMER. Would you like to proceed without interruption? Mr. JACKSON. I will be glad to try to answer questions at any time. Mr. FULMER. Very well, Mr. Boileau.

Mr. BOILEAU. Did I understand you to say that the benefits of this program would be limited to persons who have had 5 years' of experience on the farm and who have shown they have ability to acquire some personal property from the operation of such farm during that period?

Mr. JACKSON. That was simply a suggestion. But we do feel that the farmer we are interested in helping is the man who can show he is qualified and has the ability to become a farm owner. We do not believe that every tenant, just because he is a tenant, can become a farm owner.

Mr. BOILEAU. How about the farmers who have been farming, not only 5 years, but some of them 30 and 35 years, and who instead of acquiring property enough to buy a farm having during that period lost all they have had. They have had ability, and have been able to acquire property, but in the last few years have not only been unable to acquire more property but have lost all they had. Those farmers would not be eligible under your suggestion, would they? Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I think they should be covered by the administration of the bill. Certainly all people who deserve its benefits should be taken care of.

Mr. BOILEAU. Perhaps I placed too strong an emphasis in my statement on your remarks, but as I understood your suggestion it was that the applicant should have shown an ability, during the past 5 years, to acquire property.

Mr. JACKSON. That was simply a suggestion as to one evidence of his ability, as a farmer, to become a farm owner.

Mr. BOILEAU. I would like to suggest that there are many farmers who during the last 5 years have been unable to acquire any property.

Mr. JACKSON. Well, this is the statement of Dean Schaub, we do not feel that the man who calls himself a farmer but has never acquired any property is entitled to the benefits of this act. We want this act to be a success; we want the men who accept its benefits to become successful farm owners, and I am with Dean Schaub on that. He has made a careful study of tenancy in North Carolina, and they have been working on this idea since the question of farm tenancy has been under consideration for the past several years.

As I said before, we feel certain that any considerable percentage of failures would surely delay, if not destroy, an admirable attempt to establish the future agricultural prosperity of this Nation on a safe foundation of ownership of the land.

We recommend that the contract between administrators and beneficiaries of the act should provide for a probationary period of 3 to 5 years in which beneficiaries may have opportunity to prove themselves worthy a final consummation of a contract for purchase.

We believe thoroughly in the value and possibilities of cooperative effort, for we know that the members of a community where all are working for the same end of increased quality of product, or the mutual benefits to be derived from cooperative marketing or buying of supplies, have always found that in working together they lighten the task for each individual.

We know that big plantations or large tracts of land may be purchased at prices per acre that are lower and more nearly in line with the earning possibilities of the soil than the per-acre prices usually required to purchase smaller, family size farms.

We therefore recommend that the law should give the administrators of the act authority, when it seems to them advisable, to purchase and control such large tracts of land as are suitable for subdivision into family size farms, thus affording opportunity for locating groups of prospective farm owners together where their joint ambition for the attainment of ownership may have all the benefits of organized community and cooperative effort.

I am almost through, Mr. Chairman.

Now, this is based on the Bankhead bill but can apply to H. R. 8. We think the provisions in the Bankhead Farm Home Act

that any individual farm shall be of such size and fertility and so stocked and equipped as to reasonably indicate returns which will permit the occupant thereof to repay any obligation incurred by them for the purchase thereof, and to maintain a decent standard of living

is most desirable and gives the administrators of the act a pattern to work by.

But we think the limitation in that bill as to size of farm— to the size of an average farm in the State where the land is located as determined by the preceding Federal census

would tend to destroy the purpose of the bill, which is to stimulate and encourage a more successful and prosperous agriculture. That limitation says, in effect, that the status quo must not be changed, and that a State which may not be so agriculturally prosperous as the average of the United States may not adopt farming methods which are more profitable.

The average size of farms as shown by the census figures, represent existing conditions; and it is surely not the intent of the bill to prohibit farmers of any State from meeting changing conditions, or, if necessary, so changing their methods of farming as to realize their greatest possibilities.

Such use of census figures as a base would limit the size of farms in Louisiana to less than 62 acres, that is, by the use of census figures. It would provide for farms of less than 160 acres in 30 of the States, while in 20 of these States the limit would be less than 100 acres. In 9 of the States west of the Missouri River farms might have over