this hearing, and meanwhile this subcommittee will request a full statement from the Secretary, giving his point of view on this so that we may find out whether these expensive court proceedings are really necessary. We may be able to clarify the situation outside of court. I don't know that that will be the case, but we will certainly look into it.

Mr. LARISON. Can you tell me to whom that should be directed? Senator GRUENING. The Secretary of the Interior, Mr. Stewart Udall, with a copy to the committee.

Mr. LARISON. Thank you, sir.

Senator GRUENING. So that the committee may call up and see that you get an answer.

Mr. LARISON. Thank you.

Senator GRUENING. Thank you very much, Mr. Larison.

The next witness is Mr. Jack Ahern, manager of the Montana travertine quarries.

STATEMENT OF JACK AHERN, MANAGER, MONTANA TRAVERTINE QUARRIES

Mr. AHERN. Senator Gruening, Senator Metcalf, Mr. French, and Mr. Maloney, I will try to keep this as brief as possible. I realize that it will run into a lot of time.

Senator GRUENING. We will keep going until 1 o'clock and then we will reconvene after lunch.

Mr. AHERN. All right, sir.

May I get up a minute, I have a couple of things I would like to point out on the map which is a part of my presentation.

The travertine quarries at Gardiner, Mont, were first noticed in a report by Mansfield, a member of the U.S. Geological Survey in 1898, in which he described these deposits outside of Yellowstone Park in the vicinity of Gardiner, Mont.

This line right down here [indicating on map] is Park County. This [indicating] is the little town of Gardiner, Mont.

The deposit, which encompasses around 1,250 acres includes this [indicating on map] general area here.

Senator GRUENING. Mr. Ahern, for the purpose of the record, it is almost impossible to follow in the record testimony which says, “this area here," that is, the readers of the report can't see the map, so would you describe it in such a way that the printed record will reflect what you are saying?

Mr. AHERN. Yes, sir. These [indicating on map] are sections 15, 14, and 22, I believe [pointing to section 24 on map]. We have several maps for you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator GRUENING. Very well, you may identify it. This map will be received for the file.

Mr. AHERN. The area, generally speaking, lies within a mile north of Gardiner, Mont. The actual distance from this highway (indicating on map] to our principal quarry out here [indicating on map] is 2,100 feet.

This area [indicating on map] north of Gardiner, Mont., encompasses the bulk of the deposit, and it is deeded land.

The only part that is in the Forest Service and which we have filed mining claims on is east of the town of Gardiner, Mont.-it is the area on your map in orange color.

Senator GRUENING. Yes, sir.

Mr. AHERN. This area [indicating on map] is a large outcropping of the travertine deposit. Travertine has been explained by Mr. Sahinen as a precipitation from hot springs. It is a calcium carbonate. Mr. Mansfield, in his report of 1898, says,: "*** it is the purest form of calcium carbonate ever discovered * *

Now, nothing was done in this area and with the travertine quarries until in the early 1920's, when a mining claim was filed and the Grant Placer Claims, the center area on your map there [indicating], and this land was filed on and patented in the early 1920's.

No further commercial activity was done until 1932, when a lease was acquired by the Northern Pacific Railroad, which operates in here. The Northern Pacific Railroad also owns the area, the large area outlined in yellow color on your map, which covers the bulk of this deposit.

The Northwestern Improvement Co., which was a subsidiary of the Northern Pacific Railroad, went into the area, built roads and opened up the face on about eight fabulously colorful quarries. They produced large building blocks which were sold to limestone or marble processors throughout the United States and these processors processed the stone and sawed it into slabs which are used in many beautiful buildings throughout the country.

Some you may be familiar with. For instance, the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C., has a considerable amount of Montana travertine in its interior walls. The State capitol at Salem, Oreg., has an interior of Montana travertine. The State capitol of North Dakota at Bismarck and also the State capitol of Minnesota at St. Paul also use this material. Other courthouses, railroad depots, museums, mausoleums, and so forth, throughout the United States have utilized this beautiful stone.

This is a very rare stone. There are a few deposits in the United States that are of commercial value, but their production is rather small. The most famous travertine deposit in the world is just outside of Rome in Italy. It has been a continuous operation for over 2,700 years, and many of the great and famous structures of the world, including the Coliseum in Rome and St. Peter's Basilica, were built of this stone.

"Travertine," itself, is an unusual word. It is commonly used now to describe the deposits of hot mineral springs, but the word "travertine" is really a corruption of the old Latin "lapis travertinus," which simply means "stone in the Tiber River"; so it is not really a true travertine in the minds of architects and designers unless it has the same color and texture of the Italian product.

Now just to give you an example of what I am speaking of, I have a couple of samples that I would like to submit of this stone. This [indicating] is a sample of Italian travertine. This [indicating] sample came from our claim.

The color varies just a little. I have a few other pieces here which are just a little bit darker, but very similar to the Italian product. You can see the "vuginess," which are the holes [indicating], and also the color, so it will vary very little in the same way. The Italian

stone is called, the color, is called "cream"-we call ours "royal ivory." Names in this business are like names in the drug businessquite important.

Senator GRUENING. Is this material porous?

Mr. AHERN. No; as a matter of fact, in spite of all the "vuginess,' the holes, it has a very low water-absorbtion capacity-this is one of the outstanding features of travertine.

The Northern Pacific operated in these quarries and produced in excess of 4,000 tons of blocks for use as decorative building material, primarily in the form of polished slabs to be used for walls.

After World War II, because of the influx of many ersatz and inexpensive building materials, the demand for travertine, which was rather expensive to produce, fell off and the railroad abandoned its operation.

In 1952 a man named Al Welp secured the lease on the Grant Placer Claim and the Dolly Placer and started producing a rubble stone. Now rubble stone is hand split, a very crude piece of stone that is used as a wall veneer. It is shaped so that it will take the place of brick, not over 4 inches thick and suitable for placing in the wall, in a web-wall pattern.

This is the least expensive way to produce a building stone. He followed this operation, more or less by himself, with his son-in-law helping him, for several years, and in 1960 he incorporated his business under the name Montana Traverine Quarries, which is a Montana corporation.

In November 1960, we acquired the properties of this corporation from Mr. Welp, and had the lease under which he was operating assigned to us. At that time we started a very extensive investigation into the uses and the potential of the travertine deposit. Our investigations have led us to the understanding that building stone in all of its forms are highly desirable from travertine. We never call on an architect's office without always getting almost an immediate interview. We talked to an architect here this morning who designed the new Prudential Federal Savings & Loan Association building here in Butte, and the stonework on the wings of the building, on each end, are Italian travertine, and he explained to me that they didn't want to use Italian travertine, they wanted Montana travertine, but it was not available to them.

We just recently have installed our saw with which we cut this material. This has been done in the last 3 months, and we are now in a position where we can produce and supply the tremendous demand. Our operation, up until this time, until 1965, has been in what we call or speak of as the rubble-stone business, and we have sold, over the past 4 years, in excess of 6,000 tons of rubble stone. Our principal markets are in Seattle; Vancouver, British Columbia; Portland and Eugene, Oreg.; Spokane, Wash.; Calgary, Alberta, Canada; Winnipeg; Chicago; Milwaukee; Minneapolis; St. Louis; Kansas City; Denver; Salt Lake City. We have sold very little in the State of Montana. We have had a difficult time keeping up with the orders on this stone. In the meantime we were looking for a better deposit of white travertine. In the stone business we are very much like the people in the ready-to-wear garment business-color is very important. The fact that a stone is hard and durable doesn't mean too much, because most of the stone that goes into buildings these days is a

53-117-654

veneer it is simply stuck on the wall and is not a bearing wall like it was in the old days. So the architects and designers are interested in the colors that are available.

The two extremes, of course, are black and white, and are always the toughest to find in any stone. It so happens that in Gardiner we have a very beautiful white deposit. This white deposit is on a claim which we call the Happy Jack. To give you an idea of the brilliance of the whiteness, here are a couple of pieces of the stone sawed out of the quarry and split to be used as a marbleized stone and you can see the beautiful white texture that glitters in the stone which makes it very, very attractive to the designer and the architect. As a matter of fact, sales in the past 2 years have been 50 percent white, against seven other colors.

The Happy Jack No. 3 is the yellow color on this map [indicating on map] running north and south, and the No. 4 is the one next to it-that little L-shaped area-is an area that covers 30 acres, 22 acres of which is a deposit of white and cream travertine 60 feet thick, containing well in excess of a million tons of usable building

stone.

In our desire to supply the demand for white stone, we explored this area, found that it is not included within our leased land, that it was open and available for a mining claim under the mining laws.

We filed our claims in March of 1961. I visited the Bureau of Land Management in December of 1961 to inquire about the procedure for patenting the land. At that time we had invested several thousand dollars in the development work. We realized the value of the deposit and as we got into it we could see more and more that it was the type of white stone that we needed.

I was advised by the Bureau of Land Management at that time that I would have to first get a mineral analysis from the Federal agency involved-in this case, the Forest Service-which would have to be submitted with my patent application. I returned home to Gardiner, and, because it was the holidays, I didn't do anything about it. On January 6, 1962-that date may be wrong, but it was early in January 1962-I was visited by Mr. Dave Hinsman, a geologist from the Forest Service at Missoula, Mont., who advised me that he had come to make a mineral analysis of our claim. I got into the car with him in front of my house, he put a tape recorder in the seat between us, and we started driving toward the quarry which is just one mile from where I live.

he

Before we had arrived at the quarry, before he had ever seen it, announced that it was a "common variety." Well, this kind of startled me, and I said, "Well, it's not very common; it's the only deposit of its kind on the North American Continent." Now, this isn't a true statement, but I was a little upset; but he didn't challenge my statement. He said: "Well, you use it for a building stone, don't you?" I said, "Yes, and it is not very common there." He said: "Well, it has been ruled that buildings are common, therefore, all building stone is common." Now, this was the extent of his mineral analysis. No samples of the stone were taken; no mineral analyses, as far as I know, were ever made. As a matter of fact, I have questioned the Forest Service since then, and not until last year, last July, did they send somebody up to make this mineral analysis.

Mr. Hinsman advised me that I would have a report within 60 days. Now, I heard nothing more from the Forest Service until early in

COMMON VARIETIES ACT

47

June of 1963, almost 18 months later. I received a telephone call asking me if I could attend a meeting at the Forest Service office in Gardiner concerning our mining claim, and that meeting was to be held on the 26th of June-as I recall, it was about a 3-week notice. Well, I thought if they wanted to discuss it with me and gave me 3 weeks' notice, it must be something more than just a slight hearing, so I contacted Mr. "Bob" Cook, R. E. Cook, of Billings, Mont., who is an attorney, and he owns the land we lease in this area.

I told Bob what the Forest Service had told me and what they wanted and he said, "Well, don't go alone. Send all the information you have down to me and let me know." So I submitted to him the information we had on Public Law 167 and the ruling that this was a "common variety" of mineral.

I also contacted the Northern Pacific Railroad, which had operated in the area and was familiar with the geology and the market for travertine, and Mr. Jim Kime from the Northern Pacific, a geologist in their department, who is present here today, came out to attend this meeting. We also had representatives of the State planning board, a geologist who was employed by us at the time, and our auditor, I think that was about all. The Forest Service was represented by Mr. Duvendack, who, I think, was the supervisor in charge of district 1, or the Gallatin National Forest at that time, Mr. Robert Manchester from Missoula, whose title is minerals expert, I believe, Mr. Dick Joy, the local ranger, Mr. Earl Welton from the Gallatin National Forest office, and Mr. Parker, an attorney from Missoula for the Forest Service.

At that time they said they had determined that travertine was a common stone and they wanted me to sign a lease. Mr. Duvendack put a blank lease form on the table and pushed it over to me and said: "Go ahead and sign it, it's only peanuts." I asked him what he

meant by "peanuts" and it turned out that they wanted 5 percent of gross sales as a royalty, which is $1.25 per ton, and is considered to be a little bit high in this business, and that if we paid the Government as much as $1,000 a year in royalties, then it would have to be thrown open each year to competitive bidding.

Now, we had invested, up to that time, a little over $20,000 in developing this deposit on the mining claim. We have removed better than 40,000 tons of material in overburden, waste, and building stone. If we went under this lease arrangement, we would be limited to 750 tons a year, and we couldn't possibly have secured our investment back out of the quarry. In my opinion, this is an unworkable type of leasing arrangement for a business concern that is trying to make a profit.

We refused to sign the lease form at that time, and I was notified that from that day forward, June 26, 1963, that I would be penalized if I removed and sold any more stone from the quarry, and that the penalty would be 100 percent of the sales price. As a result

Senator GRUENING. Who notified you?

Mr. AHERN. Mr. Duvendack.

Senator GRUENING. In writing?

Mr. AHERN. No, sir. I've had very little in writing.

We also were advised, at that time, and I don't recall which one of the men made the statement, that we also could not have a mining claim on this property because there was an existing special use permit