and its $10 amusement tax, does not seem to have any trouble. I have never known of a single instance where they have collected a $100 tax on an amusement pin ball game. There may be instances. I do not happen to know of any.

That is their test, which is not and could not be incorporated in the law, I do not believe; but their test is that if the game has a reputation for being used as a gambling device, then the collectors of internal revenue in our 17 or 18 districts in the United States are instructed to collect the $100 gaming tax. If the machine does not have that reputation, then they collect the $10.

Now, as I say, we do not know; I do not know, of any instance where an amusement pinball game or any other amusement device has ever been taxed $100.

Mr. HARRIS. What do you think about using the definition in the Internal Revenue Act, using it in principle?

Mr. PICKERING. We suggested that to Senator Johnson of Colorado in the Senate, but it was too late. They had already taken action, and at the time we suggested it they had taken action. We discovered later that they did not have the correct language, because that act had been amended and we did not have the amendment.

Mr. HARRIS. What do you think about making the act apply, so far as the authority and responsibility of the Department of Justice is concerned, in connection with these matters, in accordance with the State laws?

Mr. PICKERING. As I read the resolution of the Crime Conference and as I heard it discussed in the transcript here, it is said that the conference wanted to be very careful to do nothing to disturb the basic policies of the States. Therefore I would say the answer to your question would be "Yes." Why not?

Mr. HARRIS. I am inclined to think that that is the intention of the Department of Justice in this matter and if we can come together and have a meeting of minds on it I believe it probably can be solved.

Mr. PICKERING. If 43 States say that the slot machine is an illegal gambling device and four others with some restrictions, and 46 or 47, including the District of Columbia, say that the pinball is a legal machine and I have a list here of hundreds and hundreds of cities where they are licensed-then that seems to be a logical definition to follow.

Mr. HARRIS. That is all I have.

Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. BECKWORTH. Mr. Bennett.

Mr. BENNETT. Mr. Pickering, Mr. Harris has emphasized the use of these coin slots on so-called amusement machines.

As I read this bill, it would not make any difference whether there is a coin element or a coin slot; that is not used as a test as to whether it is a gambling machine or not. The test is whether it is used as a gambling machine, whether you put a nickel in the slot or whether you put any coin in it.

As I read this bill the test is whether the machine can be used by the user for the purpose of gambling.

Mr. PICKERING. I heard some of your questions the other day, Mr. Bennett, and I see your point. It is a legal one. I am not an attorney. Mr. BENNETT. You have your attorney with you?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes, we have, and he is going to answer some of the legal questions which I am not qualified to answer.

One thing which confuses us and maybe confuses some of the members of the committee is this: In this industry the device in which you insert the coin, and push a lever, is known as a coin chute. It is not known as a coin chute in these machines. That is a trade name. Mr. DOLLIVER. Known as what?

Mr. PICKERING. Coin chute.

That is what it is known as by the companies who manufacture them. That is their definition of them. And, on the amusementgame machines there is the type of chute into which you put a coin. When you refer to the word "slot," it does not register, I suppose with us as well as some other people.

Mr. SULLIVAN. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. DOLLIVER. I will yield.

Mr. SULLIVAN. Do you have a pay-out chute?

Mr. PICKERING. That is not a pay-out chute. No; that is the chute where you insert the nickel to start the action of the game or device, or whatever it may be. That pay-off chute is the chute through which the money is ejected into a small container at the bottom, if you are successful in getting a winning combination of symbols. That is the pay-off chute.

Mr. BENNETT. As I understand the distinction that you make between the gambling device and an amusement device is that in the case of a gambling device, the user of the machine, by the insertion of money, over which he has no control after he once puts it in the machine, may be entitled to or may win some money or may win something of value, as against the use of a machine where a coin may be inserted and the only thing that the user gets in return is the test of his skill or his satisfaction from spending some time operating a machine of that type; is that right?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes; that is right. For instance, in the District of Columbia here-I do not know whether you have seen these amusement games or not, pinball games. If you have not and want to see them play, you can see what happens. That is the test. That is the kind of machine that we are talking about and we will stand on that; whether that is an amusement device or not.

Mr. BENNETT. But I think that you have overlooked one important fact here both in the testimony that you have given and in the amendment that you are suggesting, and that is that under the terms of this bill any amusement device whether it is operated by a coin or whether it is operated free of charge, there is no distinction here under this definition as to whether a charge is made for the use of the machine, and the intent of this bill as I see it is not to outlaw the interstate shipment of gambling machines which we all favor, but the obvious intent is, if you will read the language, is to outlaw the shipment of any kind of amusement device whether it is manufactured so that the user can have its use free of charge, or whether he has to pay a fee for doing it.

Mr. PICKERING. I agree with you. I would like to refer you to the second paragraph of my statement. You have it there?

Mr. BENNETT. Yes.

Mr. PICKERING. You see there where I say "these include such games as pinball, amusement games," and in the very next line "shuffleboards (some non-coin-operated)."

In other words, they are a long board, played with disks, and the owner charges so much for each player to play. I think it is usually 10 cents. He collects the money. There is no coin. Some have coin devices in connection with keeping the score. Some of them do not; you just keep the score by marking it up on the wall with a piece of chalk or a pencil. That is a non-coin-operated device, and there are a number of games made by some of our members.

Mr. BENNETT. Well, is it not a fact that machines operated by some of the members of your association can be adapted to gambling purposes?

Mr. PICKERING. Any machine, I think, can be adapted to gambling. Mr. BENNETT. That is what I mean.

Mr. PICKERING. We do not like

Mr. BENNETT (continuing). Let us say that you manufacture a certain machine; let us say for the purpose of amusement, whether it is on a cost basis by inserting a coin, or whether it is on a free-ofcharge basis. When that machine gets into the hands of a purchaser there is nothing to stop him from using it as a gambling device?

Mr. PICKERING. No; he can put a little card on the wall which says, "I will pay $50 for the highest score." There is nothing to stop him. Surely he can do that. What is there to stop him?

Mr. BENNETT. Under the terms of this bill though that type of machine is outlawed.

Mr. PICKERING. Yes; and here is another point

Mr. BENNETT (continuing). And as I read your amendment you have not changed the situation except to make several exceptions, but you still use the language of the bill and the word "adapted."

Mr. PICKERING. Mr. Ruttenberg more or less wrote the proposed amendment, and I would like to have you ask him those questions. I would just like to point out one thing which we are talking about. I have been told recently by some of our manufacturers that they are on the verge of perfecting a coin-operated bowling alley that is of standard size-not the little bowling alley games which run 6, 8, and 9 feet in length, which you may or may not have seen; not those coin-operated games, but a standard bowling alley. They are working on a bowling alley where you actually insert a coin and the pins automatically are set for you, and they are made already for you to bowl.

I would assume that that is very apt to come under the definition of section 1. I do not know. I am not a lawyer.

Mr. BENNETT. Certainly a machine of that kind could be used for gambling.

Mr. PICKERING. I have seen signs on the wall in bowling alleys where they offered prizes for the high scores; yes. If it is coinoperated or mechanical, it would be subject to the same condition.

Mr. BENNETT. I call your attention to the fact that this bill is not directed only to coin-operated machines. It does not use the word "coin" at all. As a matter of fact this bill covers any machine that can be utilized by the user of the machine, whether owner or not, for the purpose of gambling.

Mr. PICKERING. I agree with you, as a layman at least. I cannot argue it as a lawyer.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BECKWORTH. Are you through, Mr. Bennett?

Mr. BENNETT. Yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I would like to ask a question in connection with the terminology you used here and see if I can get my point cleared up on that. Your organization is called the Coin Machine Institute. Is that correct?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes, sir.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Do you include in your group of manufacturers those who make gum machines, for instance?

Mr. PICKERING. I think we have some few; yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. A few
gum machines?
Mr. PICKERING. Yes, sir.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Now, what about coin-operated music machines, and jute boxes?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes; we have a member that makes those; yes, sir. Yes; we do.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Now, you also have these pinball machine manufacturers?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes; very definitely.

Mr. DOLLIVER. I have gathered from what you have said that the principal membership in the organization is composed of pinball machine manufacturers.

Mr. PICKERING. In actual numbers they are not so many but their volume of business is quite large, yes, in dollars and cents. It is very large, as a matter of fact.

Mr. DOLLIVER. It is one of the major financial interests that you represent, would that be true, sir?

Mr. PICKERING. I think so. I don't know. It is hard to tell. It is hard to get a breakdown, but I would say it is a reasonably correct statement; yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Now, of course, as far as the candy and gum machines are concerned, it is scarcely conceivable that they would come in the purview of this legislation, is it not?

Mr. PICKERING. Well, we think that there is one gum machine, and I am not familiar with it, that has a certain different colored piece of gum in it and if you get that you get something. We are not enough familiar with it, but we think that that might come under that.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Is that gum machine manufactured that pays off in different amounts on a chance basis, is that one of your members? Mr. PICKERING. I have never heard of such a machine and if it pays off it is not in our association. That is all I can say.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Now, I assume, too, that the juke-box machine would be under no apprehension about any legislation at this time because they are not conceivably gambling devices, is that true?

Mr. PICKERING. That is right, because the Department of Justice in its analysis of the bill says that it is obvious that neither vending machines nor music boxes are within the scope of the definition. The intent is concisely stated there. There is no concern about that whatsoever. If there was, they would be here and some of the vending people would be here.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Is the same thing true of vending machines for cigarettes and soft drinks and candy, and none of those would be involved in this legislation, would they?

Mr. PICKERING. No; in my opinion, under the Justice Department's analysis. That is, not as long as you can insert a coin at the advertised price of the article and you get the article. Then I cannot see how it could be covered.

Mr. DOLLIVER. This legislation is not designed to interfere with that type of coin-operated machine?

Mr. PICKERING. The best proof of that, Mr. Dolliver, is this: That the vending people, which includes the operators of the machines and I believe the manufacturers have an association called the National Automatic Merchandising Association, and it is a large association, and I am quite sure if they felt that this bill in any way covered their industry, they would be here.

Mr. DOLLIVER. The thing I am trying to do is perfectly obvious. The only segment of your organization, the Coin Machines Institute, which is in jeopardy, is the pinball machines?

Mr. PICKERING. The amusement machines.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Is it not fair fair to say that those are all pinball machines?

Mr. PICKERING. Yes; but for instance, at this moment it might be interesting to note that out of seven companies that manufacture pinball machines, there are only two manufacturing them right now, and they are manufacturing another coin-operated amusement game which we think is the finest amusement game that has ever been produced in this country, and that is the bowling alley, by which you have simulated bowling, and you have a score, and it keeps a score for you just like you keep it in a bowling game. It records the strikes and it records the spares and it shows the progressive score. I think five of the seven manufacturers of pinball games are manufacturing those and they are not even manufacturing the other games. The game could come within this definition, we fear.

Mr. DOLLIVER. Where does that term "pinball" originate, and where did that come from?

Mr. PICKERING. I do not frankly know. It originally came apparently from bagatelle, which was a French game.

Mr. PRIEST. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. DOLLIVER. Let the witness finish and then I will yield.

Mr. PICKERING. That is all I know. Some of the cities have ordinances which they call "Bagatelle Ordinances," and where the name originated, I do not know.

Mr. PRIEST. I was simply suggesting a possible answer to the question, that the operation of the machine is based on a ball and a pin, which is a sort of plunger that you pull and it shoots the ball, and it is just a mechanical description of the operation of the machine.

Mr. PICKERING. That would appear to be the logical explanation. Mr. MCGUIRE. Very respectable and highly regarded citizens play these games, do they not?

Mr. PICKERING. Oh, yes, one of the most profitable operations I would say is in some of the airports, where people are waiting to change planes. In Minneapolis and Cincinnati and St. Louis, I believe, they have them. I am not positive of St. Louis. I think that

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