ACTIVITIES OF UNITED STATES CITIZENS EMPLOYED BY THE UNITED NATIONS THURSDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1952 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS The subcommittee met at 11:50 a. m. in public session, pursuant to call, in room 1306, United States Courthouse, Foley Square, Hon. Homer Ferguson presiding. Present: Senator Homer Ferguson. Also present: Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel. Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Wermiel, please. TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIN WERMIEL Senator FERGUSON. Will you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear, in the matter now pending before this subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate, that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. WERMIEL. I do. Mr. MORRIS. Will you give your present address to the reporter, please? Mr. WERMIEL. 202 Avenue F, Brooklyn. Mr. MORRIS. And your name is Benjamin Wermiel? Mr. WERMIEL. That is right. Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Wermiel, have you been employed by UNESCO? Mr. WERMIEL. I have. Mr. MORRIS. Will you tell us what position you have had? Mr. WERMIEL. My latest position was administrative officer of the headquarters planning unit. Mr. MORRIS. Where was your headquarters? Mr. WERMIEL. In Paris. Mr. MORRIS. What was your gross salary? Mr. WERMIEL. $8,000 a year. Mr. MORRIS. Did you resign this last week from the position? Mr. WERMIEL. I resigned effective December 1. My resignation had been turned in in July. Mr. MORRIS. July? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. Mr. MORRIS. Now, Mr. Wermiel, have you ever been Senator FERGUSON. Could I ask one question there? What were your real duties as the chief of the planning section? Mr. WERMIEL. It wasn't chief of the planning section, sir. It was administrative officer. My duties were varied and miscellaneous, concerned with all the various tasks involved in working with the architects assigned to design a new building for UNESCO's permanent headquarters. Senator FERGUSON. Did it have anything to do with planning projects of UNESCO? Mr. WERMIEL. Nothing whatever. Only with building. Mr. WERMIEL. Eighteen months. Senator FERGUSON. You were working 18 months on the planning of a new building for UNESCO? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. Senator FERGUSON. UNESCO has its own governing body, does it not, outside of the United Nations? Mr. WERMIEL. That is right. There are 65 nations that are member states-68 now-I am sorry-they have just admitted Senator FERGUSON. How many iron-curtain countries are there? Mr. WERMIEL. Three up to the time I left, but I read recently that Poland had withdrawn. Senator FERGUSON. What were they? Mr. WERMIEL. Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia. Mr. MORRIS. What position did you hold previous to that? Mr. WERMIEL. Prior to that I was head of what is known as the General Services Division which was in charge of the various services of the organization, that is, purchases, the building maintenance, the mail and registry service, and so forth. Mr. MORRIS. And prior to that, Mr. Wermiel? Mr. WERMIEL. Prior to that I worked for 8 months, I believe, in the Bureau of Personnel. And prior to that, the job for which I was originally employed, and which is hard to describe a kind of a documentation officer, what I told you yesterday, this project to build up this enormous center for all the cultural projects in the world, a project which did not come into being. Senator FERGUSON. That idea was abandoned? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. Senator FERGUSON. How long did you work on that idea? Senator FERGUSON. How many had you on the staff of that? Mr. WERMIEL. Well, there were only three of us. I was head of the staff; that is, I was head of the particular unit under the department head, and I recommended that the project be dropped, as it was, in my opinion, a worthless project which would involve large sums of money eventually. Mr. MORRIS. Have you in the past been a member of the Communist Party, Mr. Wermiel? Mr. WERMIEL. I cannot answer that, sir, because of possible selfincrimination. Senator FERGUSON. You claim that an answer to that question may tend to incriminate you? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes, sir. Senator FERGUSON. And you do that in good faith? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes, sir. Senator FERGUSON. You need not answer. Mr. MORRIS. Have you been associated with the American League for Peace and Democracy? Mr. WERMIEL. I am afraid I must give the same answer. Senator FERGUSON. In other words, you refuse to answer on the same ground that it might tend to incriminate you, and under the fifth amendment you decline to answer? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. Senator FERGUSON. I will sustain the objection. Mr. MORRIS. Have you been associated with the Washington Book Shop? Mr. WERMIEL. I must give the same answer to that. Senator FERGUSON. The same ruling on that. Mr. MORRIS. Have you been a member of the executive committee of the United Federal Workers? Mr. WERMIEL. I must give the same answer. Senator FERGUSON. You refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate you? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes, sir. Mr. MORRIS. Have you been active on the committee known as the executive committee to reinstate Helen Miller? Mr. WERMIEL. I am afraid I must give the same answer. Senator FERGUSON. When you say you are afraid you must give the same answer, do you in good faith claim the privilege of the fifth amendment? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. Senator FERGUSON. That it may tend to incriminate you? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes, sir. Senator FERGUSON. I will allow him to refuse to answer. Mr. MORRIS. Mr. Wermiel, will you tell us when you graduated from college? Mr. WERMIEL. I went for a long time, going at night. I am trying to recall. Mr. MORRIS. Roughly. Mr. WERMIEL. 1939 or 1940. Mr. MORRIS. What Government employment have you had? Mr. WERMIEL. Well, I started with the Washington United States Civil Service Commission as clerk in 1938. Mr. MORRIS. Were you at that time a member of the Communist Party? Mr. WERMIEL. I am afraid I shall have to invoke the fifth amendment again, sir. Mr. MORRIS. What was your next Government assignment? Mr. WERMIEL. Junior statistician in the Civil Service Commission. Mr. MORRIS. What were the termini of that employment? Mr. WERMIEL. It was continuous employment in the Civil Service Commission. I am not sure I can give the dates. Mr. MORRIS. Approximately. Mr. WERMIEL. I must have been a clerk for approximately a year, I imagine, and then became a junior statistician, I would guess, some time about the middle of 1939. That is a guess, sir. Mr. MORRIS. And during that period were you a member of the Communist Party? Mr. WERMIEL. I am afraid I must invoke the fifth amendment again. Senator FERGUSON. You may decline to answer. I understand on each one of these answers when you say you will have to invoke it, you mean you do invoke it? Mr. WERMIEL. I do. Senator FERGUSON. And it is on the ground that it may tend to incriminate you? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes, sir. Senator FERGUSON. I won't keep repeating that. Mr. MORRIS. What was your next employment after the 1939 employment? Mr. WERMIEL. Still with the Civil Service Commission, and I then became engaged with the National Roster of Scientific and Specialized Personnel. Mr. MORRIS. Will you explain that? Mr. WERMIEL. That was an organization set up to establish the roster of all scientific and specialized personnel in the country in order to make available to the various war work organizations and to the Army and Navy the names of qualified personnel for any jobs which they may have to fill in connection with the defense effort and the war. Mr. MORRIS. What was your position in that National Roster of Scientific and Specialized Personnel? Mr. WERMIEL. Varied from time to time. I held a whole slew of them. Mr. MORRIS. Give us fully the positions you held in that organization. Mr. WERMIEL. I am not sure I can give them with dates or continuous employment. I am not sure I can recall the dates. Mr. MORRIS. That is not as important. I would like to know what is the highest job you had? Mr. WERMIEL. The highest job I held was starting-let me see if I can get this straight. I would guess it started in about 1944, I believe. That is a guess again. I am not sure. Mr. MORRIS. The highest job started in 1944. What was that? Mr. WERMIEL. I was first head of what was called the placement set-up, which wasnt really placement, it was digging up names of qualified people and turning them over to the various interested agencies. Mr. MORRIS. At that time, while you held the position as head of the placement set-up, were you a member of the Communist Party? Mr. WERMIEL. I shall have to invoke the fifth amendment. Senator FERGUSON. Let's see what this job was. You had a list of all the civil service Mr. WERMIEL. No; not civil service. Senator FERGUSON. All employees of Mr. WERMIEL. No. Scientific and professional qualified personnel in the country. Senator FERGUSON. You had that list? Mr. WERMIEL. That is right. Senator FERGUSON. Some of them were civil service and some of them were not? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes. The big bulk were not. Senator FERGUSON. And you then took that list, and from that list would submit to the various Government agencies names from that list? Mr. WERMIEL. No. What we did, sir, we had questionnaires filled out by these individuals, and those questions had been coded and put on IBM punch cards, and as the various agencies and industries requested qualified personnel, we pulled out, by using the punch-card system, the persons whose qualifications responded, and made the questionnaires available to the agencies concerned. Senator FERGUSON. So that if you had wanted to you could have favored Communists? Mr. WERMIEL. If I had known such people. Senator FERGUSON. Yes. Mr. MORRIS. Did you know Communists at that time? Mr. WERMIEL. What I mean, the questionnaires-there were millions, and all that was on the questionnaire was the specific record of the person concerned. Senator FERGUSON. But you knew some people personally, didn't you? Mr. WERMIEL. I can't say so, sir. I have to invoke the fifth amendment. Senator FERGUSON. You have to invoke the fifth amendment on that general question? How could that tend to incriminate you? Mr. WERMIEL. I may have misunderstood your question. I am sorry, sir. Senator FERGUSON. If you are going to invoke the fifth amendment it must be done in good faith with the belief that it would actually tend to incriminate you, or in your opinion that it would. Mr. WERMIEL. I may have misunderstood the question. Senator FERGUSON. You thought the question included Communists? Mr. WERMIEL. I thought it was a follow-up on his question. I am sorry. Senator FERGUSON. But there isn't any doubt in your opinion now that if you would have wanted to favor Communists, or any particular person, you had the opportunity? Mr. WERMIEL. Yes and no. In this respect, I could have included anybody I wanted to, I suppose, in a submission. Senator FERGUSON. Yes, and you could have limited the amount of submissions, the number of people submitted? Mr. WERMIEL. Well, in theory, I suppose. In general our philosophy was to submit as many as possible. Senator FERGUSON. I am asking you what your powers were. You could have done that? Mr. WERMIEL. I will say this. In 90 percent of the cases I did not even see the papers submitted, or the list submitted. It was done by subordinates. Senator FERGUSON. How many people were in that department? Mr. WERMIEL. At its peak I believe there were about 120. |