LEASES OF COMMERCIAL CHANNELS

Mr. ANDREWs. You stated that in the United States communications channels are provided almost exclusively by leases from commercial communications companies. Could you tell us what companies you do business with and what your contracts with the companies amount to?

Colonel PAULSON. It will be principally A.T. & T. and Western Union. The big majority of the business within the United States is with A.T. & T. for the long lines.

I am not sure whether you are speaking of the service budgets or if it is the DCA budget for leased communications that you are principally interested in.

Mr. ANDREWS. I am speaking of your cost.

Colonel PAULSON. Of our specific cost. This is itemized in activity C, which amounts to about $953,900. We estimate commercial leased communications in the United States accounts for the major share of the $953,900 for commercial leased communications.

Mr. ANDREWS. That is included in your $12,800,000 budget?

Colonel PAULSON. Yes, sir, that is under activity C, the $953,900 is for our leased communications.

MILITARY AND CIVILIAN PERSONNEL

Mr. ANDREWS. You told us the total number of employees that you expect to have. I would like you to tell us how many persons at headquarters and at the control centers are to be civilians and how many military. I do not think you broke down that total figure.

Admiral IRVIN. No, sir. At headquarters the number is 212. Ninety-five of those are officers, 34 are technical civilians, 56 are clerical and administrative type civilians, and 27 are enlisted.

At the first center, the National Control Center, of the 93 total for the center, 19 are officers, 64 are enlisted men, and 10 are civilians. Of those 10, 4 are clerical.

Mr. OSTERTAG. Is the total 212 plus 93?

Admiral IRVIN. Yes, sir, 212 is headquarters, 93 is control center. Mr. OSTERTAG. Did you give us the breakdown as between military and civilian?

Admiral IRVIN. Yes, sir. The approximation in the headquarters is roughly three officers to one technical civilian. There are 56 clerical administrative type civilians to 95 officers and 34 civilians. Mr. ANDREWS. Mr. Flood.

Mr. FLOOD. At the end of Mr. Andrews' question, if there is no objection, could you insert a chart of some sort I do not care what sort you think up-to break down, giving some listing of the nature, type, and the kind of these leased Western Electric services on this item. Most of us-you, too, I suppose-work for insurance companies. It seems that the U.S. Government works for the Western Electric. I was going to say General Electric, but that is a bad word any more.

I would like to see in this specific case, a comparatively small item, what several things the Western Electric people do on this one. Admiral IRVIN. That is related to item C, the $953,900?

Mr. FLOOD. Yes; whatever you may have. The form is not important. You do not have to put it all in, just enough to indicate what it is.

Colonel PAULSON. May we submit that for the record?

Mr. FLOOD. Yes.

(The information follows:)

1. Generally, within the United States, telegraph services and equipment are leased from the Western Union Co. and voice services and equipment from the A. T. & T. and their associated companies. Between the United States and foreign countries services are leased from international communication companies including the American Cable and Radio System (A.C. & R.), Radio Corp. of America Communications (R.C.A.C.), Western Union (W.U.) and the A.T. & T. Co. In overseas installations service and equipment are leased from the appropriate postal, telephone, and telegraph administrations of the foreign country involved.

2. The following is an approximate breakout, by company, of the $953,000 leased communications services and equipment item in the fiscal year-62 DCA budget submission:

3. The above charges cover the provision of 54 leased circuits and associated terminal equipment required to operate the Defense National Communications Control Center (DNCCC) and the Defense Area Control Communication Centers (DACCC) which will be used by the Defense Communications Agency to control the worldwide Defense Communications System.

LOCATION OF CONTROL CENTERS

Mr. FLOOD. On this chart you had, Captain, those were control centers. You have shown us for the last several years here a more detailed line of communication, not just the control centers, which those are, I presume. Is that correct?

Admiral IRVIN. That is correct.

Mr. FLOOD. You feed all your area stuff into those centers; is that right?

Admiral IRVIN. This, sir, is not in any way a frame of communication lines. These are centers which execute control over a complex of communications in those areas.

Mr. FLOOD. I know what it is, but where is the magnificent chart you used to have here showing a facsimile of the world with all the lines running from the control centers into a secondary or, tertiary

chain?

General SAMPSON. We do not have that chart.

Mr. FLOOD. You remember the one?

General SAMPSON. Yes. It is a worldwide communications chart showing switching centers in Japan, Okinawa, et cetera. Mr. FLOOD. Are you mad at us?

General SAMPSON. No; we thought we used it too much. This control center in the Far East is to be connected to those communications switching centers at Okinawa, Japan, Formosa, et cetera. This center will control that part of the Defense Communications System in that area. If that system you spoke of were superimposed on this chart, or if this were superimposed on the other, you would find all of

these control centers tie into the switching centers in the particular area or region.

Mr. FLOOD. That is what happens to all control centers, but where are the hot lines in Spain?

General SAMPSON. They are not on this map. They go from the San Pablo area back to Washington.

Mr. FLOOD. Do they run from all our stations up, from Cadiz north to the Europe control center?

General SAMPSON. This control center in Spain will be tied in to the relay centers in Spain.

Mr. FLOOD. Is there one in Spain?

General SAMPSON. Yes, sir; there is to be one in Spain.

Mr. FLOOD. There is to be?

General SAMPSON. Yes, one of the nine we are asking for in fiscal year 1962.

Mr. FLOOD. Is that United Kingdom-Europe?

General SAMPSON. There is to be one in the United Kingdom.
Mr. FLOOD. And one in Europe?

General SAMPSON. Yes.

Mr. FLOOD. There will be three dots there?

General SAMPSON. There is also one in Turkey. This one in Europe is what we call an area center and these three-Spain, Turkey, and United Kingdom-are subordinate regions to the area center.

Mr. FLOOD. So far we have nothing in Africa?

General SAMPSON. No, sir; other than the two switching centers at Sidi Slimane and Port Lyautey, which would be controlled by this control center.

Mr. FLOOD. If we get tossed out of Port Lyautey-it has another name here and Sidi Slimane, that is the end of our operation in the African Continent; is that right?

at

General SAMPSON. With one exception at Asmara, Eritrea, and also

Mr. FLOOD. Asmara will feed into Turkey?

General SAMPSON. Yes.

Mr. FLOOD. Nothing in South America?
Admiral IRVIN. In Panama.

CINCCARIB is located in Panama. You will notice from this control center, we can execute control over all Caribbean complex from the United States. We repeat, this is control.

Mr. FLOOD. You do not need a control in South America, you do not need a control anywhere in Africa?

Admiral IRVIN. No, sir; there is not enough of a communications complex to warrant any such thing.

Mr. FLOOD. All this hardware is armed services stuff?

Admiral IRVIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. Is this the communications grid that NSA uses?

Admiral IRVIN. I repeat, sir, this is simply a complex of controls. This controls the grid which NSA uses.

Mr. FLOOD. But NSA deals with communications?

Admiral IRVIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. But this is the system they use, this grid, these controls, and the grid systems from it?

Admiral IRVIN. These are the controls over that grid.

RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT RESPONSIBILITIES

Mr. FLOOD. On your R. & D. we spent a lot of time over the last several years with you and with NSA. and with NSA. Is there any overlapping on the R. & D. between you people and NSA on hardware?

Admiral IRVIN. No, sir.

Mr. FLOOD. Do you just do R. & D. on the hardware in this grid

or the control center?

Admiral IRVIN. We do R. & D. on the system concepts only. We do not do R. & D. on any hardware. The services do that and NSA does it on

Mr. FLOOD. You do not overlap with them on anything, you just run this shop?

Admiral IRVIN. We run the controls. Another way of saying it is what NSA needs in the way of channels to feed from some forward location back to Washington, it is our job to see that they get it. Mr. FLOOD. I mean specifically R. & D. Your R. & D. deals only with your own hardware; is that right?

Admiral IRVIN. Our R. & D. deals with the system concepts, no hardware.

Mr. FLOOD. Who does your R. & D. on your hardware?
Admiral IRVIN. The respective services.

Mr. FLOOD. Your R. & D. is only on the plan itself, the thing, the operation of the communications system? Your R. & D. is thinking R. & D.; you do not deal with hardware?

Admiral IRVIN. No.

Mr. FLOOD. You cannot pick up your R. & D. and hold it; is that it?

Admiral IRVIN. Yes, sir; the services

Mr. FLOOD. They do, but the R. & D. of this budget item is not something you can pick up, it is a brainchild, is it not?

Admiral IRVIN. It is an analysis and evaluation and the study effort to lead to standardization, compatability, technical integrity, so that all will fit.

Mr FLOOD. You do not create any hardware, you do not do R. & D. on hardware?

Admiral IRVIN. NO.

Mr. FLOOD. You do not deal with things.

Admiral IRVIN. We do not deal with things.
Mr. FLOOD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ANDREWS. Mr. Ford.

DCA PARTICIPATION IN BUDGET FORMULATION

Mr. FORD. Admiral, you just said you will control the grid with this management system you have. Do you also have control over the budgets of the respective services for communications?

Admiral IRVIN. In this we have not. We were not in being at the time the budgets of the respective services were developed.

Mr. FLOOD. I may say again this is another example of the frustration of this performance budget thing. This is where I came in.

Mr. FORD. I can see for fiscal 1962 why you would not have had a part in the planning of the budget in communications for the three

services, but if you are going to control the grid, if you are going to manage the respective service contributions to this total Defense program for communications, it seems inevitable that you will have to be a supervising agency for the formulation of the budget and the eventual execution of it. What is your comment?

Admiral IRVIN. That, to my mind, sir, is precisely the case. I was making the point, sir, that in 1962 we came into being so late in the budget cycle that we could not participate at all. I do not think there is any question at all that in 1963 we will have to be a part of the budget applications of each of the three services in the areas of longline communications.

I do not think there is any question at all from our interpretation and our reading of the directive that we will be part and parcel of the analysis, evaluation, and provide recommendations to the Department of Defense with respect to all of the items in long-line communications for all of the services.

Mr. FORD. Do you find some hesitancy even in your first day of operation on the part of the services to accept this part of your responsibility?

Admiral IRVIN. No, sir; I do not think it could be said hesitancy. The paint is so fresh here that this is simply a matter of feeling the tackiness of it. I do not mean to be boastful, sir, but when I point to the fact that it has been necessary for us to bring all this about in 9 months' time, this has been quite a childbirth.

Mr. FORD. I agree, and it makes a good showing so far as I am concerned, and I suspect also the committee. But if you are really going to do a job to achieve these economies, you have to pull together not only the grids but the dollars and have some supervision over the planning and the expenditure of those funds.

Admiral IRVIN. We are most appreciative of that, sir. In fact, this headquarters organization is made up in three parts: Directorate of Operations, Directorate of Plans and Programs, and Directorate of Research and Development; and the three Directors sit with me here. Colonel Paulson and his group has been busy practically around the clock on just this area. This is a thing in front of us, we know it full well, and we know in 1963 that we are definitely going to be a very big part of this. I stress the fact that in this year we were formulated and could not possibly do so.

Mr. FORD. I visualize that next year, actually, you or somebody from your office should be here when the three services present their communications budgets, or perhaps all three services should be here with you simultaneously to submit their budgets under the supervision of your office.

Mr. FLOOD. I certainly agree with that.

Admiral IRVIN. That is my idea.

Mr. FORD. Maybe we can help you to achieve that by suggesting this be the case next year.

Admiral IRVIN. I believe you will find the Department of Defense already has this firmly in mind.

Mr. FORD. We will look forward to such a presentation next year. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ANDREWS. Mr. Ostertag.