and one part of that revolved around the Cleveland Tank Plant. You recall that that was a bomber plant during the war; that in 1950 the Army turned it into a light tank plant and light tanks were produced there. Our plan in 1958 Mr. MINSHALL. That was the T-41 tank. General HINRICHS. Yes, sir. Our mobilization planning in 1958 led us into a study of the whole mobilization base. In 1959, the Army prepared a plan, a result of that study, which was forwarded to the Department of Defense for consideration. Involved in that plan was, among others, the Cleveland Tank Plant. We had planned at that time a series of vehicles that were compatible with the plant and with the equipment in that plant and available to us. It was comprised entirely of the so-called light tank and light combat vehicle family. ARMY PRODUCTION PLANS As of today our plan contemplates putting into the Cleveland Tank Plant (when the vehicles are ready for production) the following vehicles: The T-195 self-propelled gun; the T-196, which is a 155 self-propelled, and which has the same chassis essentially as the T-195; the M-41A2, with an "if," and that depends on the military aid applications for the M-41 light tank; the T-114 reconnaissance carrier; and at a future date the airborne reconnaissance and armored assault vehicle (AR/AAV) which is also a light, air-droppable vehicle. These are all fairly closely related in their designs, with some commonality of parts, et cetera, so that the Army plan as it stands today is to put into the Cleveland Tank Plant those vehicles over the next few years. To a degree this depends upon budget considerations, which is perfectly obvious; and the timing to a degree also on the state of development of each of those vehicles. That plan is now under consideration by the Department of Defense. I have discussed it with other members of the Army staff, with Mr. Morris, who is Assistant Secretary of Defense, Logistics, and who incidentally is in Cleveland, I believe, today, looking at that plant. We expect a decision on that plan in the near future, but I cannot state specifically what the decision will be obviously, at this point in time. Mr. MINSHALL. How much will that entail in units of production and how much in dollars? General HINRICHS. This is classified secret information. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. What will that total be for that particular item? General HINRICHS. My memory tells me it is around $200 million. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. What is the total for that item? General HINRICHS. That total would run in the neighborhood of $145 million. General Duff is very good with mathematics. I will ask him to check my memory here. General DUFF. The first one was $200 million. General HINRICHS. The second one would be about I will have to verify these figures. -each. Mr. MINSHALL. I understand. These are ball-park figures. You are getting up in the billion-dollar category, are you not? 67438-61-pt. 2-19 General HINRICHS. There is a lot of money in this; yes, (Discussion off the record.) sir. General HINRICHS. I was approaching this in a little different way and that was that if we get tuned up to production across the board, the employment there would be in the order of 3,000 to 4,000 and the payroll would be a comparable figure, around $30 million a year payroll, or maybe more than that. Mr. MINSHALL. When do you think the first production would start after the order is given? sir. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. Can that be expedited? General HINRICHS. I do not see any way we can expedite that, no, (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. This is solely for the Cleveland Ordnance Tank Plant. This does not include the Lima facility, it does not include the Detroit facilities? General HINRICHS. No, sir, this is specifically pointed at Cleveland. Mr. MINSHALL. What do you plan to do with the Lima facility, without going into detail? General HINRICHS. That was to a degree a modification center. Under the plan it would be utilized for the assembly of medium tanks. Mr. FLOOD. What was that? General HINRICHS. It might be used for the modification or assembly of tanks. Mr. FLOOD. Where? General HINRICHS. At Lima. Mr. MINSHALL. Lima, Ohio, where they make steam shovels, et cetera. Mr. FLOOD. You are not talking about that retrofit job of 600 M-48's. General HINRICHS. No. sir. Mr. FORD. Where will that be done? General HINRICHS. That is a good question at the current writing. Mr. FORD. We have heard a lot about Ohio. I could not help but be inquisitive. General HINRICHS. The Lima plant was a retrofit plant at one time. As you know, it is now in standby. Mr. MINSHALL. The Detroit facility is part of the same complex? General HINRICHS. That has to do with the new heavy tanks, that is right. Mr. FLOOD. You are doing the M-60's at Detroit now, are you not? They picked up a batch last Christmas. General HINRICHS. That is correct, sir. Mr. FORD. Was that the second increment? General HINRICHS. Yes, sir. Mr. MINSHALL. To recapitulate, General, how many different kinds of units are going to be manufactured there, just to summarize in the record? General HINRICHS. Our plan Mr. MINSHALL. Your plan, that is right. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. And of course the total volume of this will go up to something in excess of a billion dollars. General HINRICHS. I would think that would be correct-approaching a billion dollars. Mr. MINSHALL. Repeat, again, please the total dollar volume on the payroll annually? General HINRICHS. My estimate is it would run something around $30 million. Mr. MINSHALL. For 3,000 to 4,000 employees annually? (Discussion off the record.) Mr. MINSHALL. Mr. Chairman, I believe that covers my request. STATUS OF ARMY PLAN APPROVALS Mr. MAHON. General, you have been speaking as though this had been agreed upon to some extent. General HINRICHS. This is the Army plan. Mr. MAHON. I would like to know whether or not this is the plan of President Kennedy and Secretary McNamara and the Department of Defense and the Government in general. General HINRICHS. It has not been approved by the DOD. It is now under consideration by Mr. McNamara's office. I do not know whether Mr. Kennedy has been informed of it or not. I presume he may have been. Mr. MAHON. Tomorrow, I understand, you are meeting with many of the interested members of the Ohio delegation for the purpose of discussing this. General HINRICHS. I understand that Mr. McNamara is having such a meeting. I will not be there to my knowledge. Mr. MINSHALL. We are having a luncheon tomorrow at 1 o'clock. with the two Ohio Senators and the four area Congressmen from Cleveland. Mr. MAHON. Mr. Sheppard? PRESENT USE OF CLEVELAND ORDNANCE PLANT Mr. SHEPPARD. What is the present occupation of the building and what are you producing there now? General HINRICHS. The current work going on there now is largely in the research and development area on the light personnel carrier, the T-114; there is some engineering work on the T-195, and the T-196. This is by the Cadillac Division of General Motors, and there is a standby maintenance force there. The total employment, as I recall the figure right now is about 375, of which probably 70-odd are maintenance, caretaking type people. Mr. SHEPPARD. What is the capital investment in the entire, property? General HINRICHS. The real estate is something over $35 million, the plant and equipment, tools and that type of thing in the order of $64 million. Mr. SHEPPARD. In the plan you have just delineated to my friend from Ohio, Mr. Minshall, what other places geographically will shut down in order to attain the end that the Army is considering at the moment? General HINRICHS. I do not see that we will shut down any other places. There is no production in any area in these vehicles to which I refer. Mr. SHEPPARD. These are all new vehicles. General HINRICHS. Yes, sir. OTHER FACILITIES CAPABLE OF ACCOMPLISHING PLAN Mr. SHEPPARD. How many comparable buildings do you have throughout the United States, comparable of producing the elements you have just referred to as being contemplated for production there? General HINRICHS. I am afraid I could not give you a very comprehensive figure on that. There are probably a great many places which could be converted. However, they are not now within the mobilization base that we have. There are no specific facilities that I recall that are built in this direction. Mr. SHEPPARD. In other words, insofar as mobilization readiness is concerned, you have nothing in readiness for this type of vehicles? General HINRICHS. No, sir. We have other plants. For instance, there is a plant in California with which you are probably quite familiar where we are building the M-113 personnel carrier, which is a Food Machinery Co. plant. Mr. SHEPPARD. Where is that located? General HINRICHS. San Jose, Calif. Mr. SHEPPARD. What is the capital investment there? General HINRICHS. I do not know what the complete Food Machinery plant is worth. Most of that is their own. We have upward of $15 million worth of tools and equipment in the plant. Mr. SHEPPARD. Most of the tools and equipment is in standby condition. General HINRICHS. They are in actual production. Mr. SHEPPARD. In other words, it is in a mobilization category that your tools and equipment are there? General HINRICHS. Yes, sir. Mr. MAHON. Mr. Ford. METHOD OF CONTRACTING FOR PROPOSED PRODUCTION Mr. FORD. How will you let the contracts for these various items? Will it be on a competitive basis? Will you solicit bids from various contractors who would be forced to use this facility, or just what is the technique you intend to pursue? General HINRICHS. Well, in the case of the T-195 and T-196, Cadillac has been doing the production engineering and design improvement work on them. Initially I would presume that we will negotiate the initial production contract. There was either arsenal or competitive work with the other vehicles in the design area. From the standpoint of the subsequent operation of the plant, we had planned, if possible, to have competitive management type negotiations for the operation of the plant. Mr. FORD. It is my understanding in the past that where you gave a development contract to a partciular company for a particular vehicle, that did not necessarily assure that company that they would get the production of the vehicle. General HINRICHS. It does not necessarily; that is correct. Mr. FORD. I must have misconstrued what you said about the role that Cadillac and General Motors might play in this. General HINRICHS. Cadillac is the engineering agency now working on these things. Mr. FORD. They might or they might not get the contract. General HINRICHS. That is correct. Mr. FORD. Depending upon the competitive situation. Mr. FLOOD. Did I understand you to say, General, that one of the elements in the equation which produced the Cleveland decision was the fact that my friend says Cleveland was a distressed economic area? General HINRICHS. No, sir. That had nothing to do with it. Mr. FLOOD. This intrigues me. General HINRICHS. In our planning, we looked at facilities as facilities without necessarily any regard to the area as a distressed, or otherwise, area. Under DOD regulations, we do, of course, consider labor surplus areas in connection with procurement. Mr. MINSHALL. For the sake of the record, and my colleague from Pennsylvania, I should like to remind him that I have been working on the utilization of this tank plant ever since early in 1959 and the records of the committee hearings in this room will so attest to it, a year ago and 2 years ago. Mr. FLOOD. I would remind my friend from Ohio that I have been working on distressed economic areas before I ever heard of the Cleveland plant. Mr. MAHON. Thank you, General. Mr. MINSHALL. General, thank you so much. TUESDAY, MARCH 7, 1961. DEFENSE COMMUNICATION AGENCY WITNESSES REAR ADM. WILLIAM D. IRVIN, USN, CHIEF, DEFENSE COMMUNICATIONS AGENCY BRIG. GEN. GEORGE P. SAMPSON, USA, DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, DEFENSE COMMUNICATIONS AGENCY COL. ROBERT W. PAULSON, USAF, DIRECTOR OF PLANS AND PRO GRAMS CAPT. JOHN M. PHELPS, USN, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT Mr. MAHON. We now have before us Rear Admiral Irvin, Chief of Defense Communications Agency. The members of the committee will remember this new agency was one created largely as a result of the prodding of the House Committee on Appropriations. |