sense of left hand, right hand. That kind of work needs to be supported.

Finally, you need some just plain very good cost accounting of the actual operation of educational experiments. We change this input. What happens to the output? You just observe the actual experience of the day care center, or whatever the facility is. I would like to analyze it by the methods of regression analysis, and so forth, which we are pretty good at. I would like to say two things to you, sir, and this is hard felt, particularly in the aftermath of the Headstart experience. Don't expect to learn anything serious inside 10 years. It takes 18 years to produce an American citizen, or 18 years and 9 months, some people would say. You can't do some of these things quickly. You learn some things early, but not finally.

Second, I would hope that in going ahead with your proposal-and I certainly hope it does go ahead-that you confine the area of research to a fairly limited number of these enterprises. One of the difficulties with Headstart is that we have tried to go out and evaluate all Headstart programs. There are a number of thousands of these, no one of which is alike. You don't get good research out of that. You get good research by saying we are going to do a thousand of these things and we wish them all luck but there will be a few which we are really going to watch, we are going to instrument, we are going to calibrate and we are never going to let go. Concentrate your inquiry on a few and. for the rest, hope for the best. And then learn to recycle your findings among the rest.

Mr. REID. I think these comments are extremely lucid and helpful. Let me ask a final question. The research on DNA-and indeed the research on potential, if not actual brain damage, perhaps some of it prenatally as well as in the early formative years-certainly suggested the importance of balanced nutrition, it seems to me. And any such project, I think, nutrition has got to be part of any such project.

The other question that I would ask you: Would you not distinguish in your cognitive approach between what might be called compensatory education and what might be called going on from a certain level? I may not be putting it accurately, but there are so many children so far behind in basic training experience that they never really catch up with grade level in reading. And we have to factor in, if we take your goal hopefully, some equality of output at a certain point; this is the compensatory side as opposed to general improvement for one and all, isn't it?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. First, I agree with you completely about nutrition-and remember, we don't have to talk about brain damage in order to argue that it is a good thing to feed children. Let's just feed them.

Mr. REID. I would add, even in New York City today there are 400.000 children who do not get free lunch and breakfast, who do not get it and who need it. It is obvious as a Nation we haven't made the commitment to feeding the hungry.

Mr. MOYNIHAN. What is the matter with us? But on the point of fact on compensatory education, if I read your thinking correctly, we may get to the point hopefully in this country where we don't need

compensatory education, because people don't arrive at an instituti behind, if you pick them up early enough.

Professor Kagan at Harvard has demonstrated very clearly that different social class level by age 9 months the children are differe Don't let me be held to 9 months, but they already have different ab ties reflecting their class and origin. These reflect money and envir ment, and so forth.

We have much to learn from the principle of preventive medic All of the great changes in health have come from preventive m cine. Doctors don't do much fixing up. They prevent. Compensat education has proved enormously difficult. It almost never succe We now know things we didn't know a decade ago as to why it ne succeeds.

The problem originates very early, at the ages you and Mr. Br mas are talking about. We are beginning to know how to reverse see that it doesn't happen. A doctor out at National Institute of He has been working with poor children here in Washington. He has able to show a decline in IQ starting at about 18 months, in a co group, and he has been able to prevent that with the group he is w ing on. Having prevented the problem, you never have it. Mr. REID. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Meeds of Washington.

Mr. MEEDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moynihan, it is very good to see you again. And, as you have never been one to shrink from controversy and you made statements here today which I feel are very provocativ will undoubtedly embroil you in more controversy, and I am gla have done so.

I think for years, ever since its inception in this country, we felt that if we simply provide equality of educational oppor that we have done our share in this country and that is suf And I hear for the first time this morning someone say that providing equality of educational opportunity is not sufficient. It seems clear to me, after and years of seeing that it hasn't pr real equality, you are saying we have to do more, and I am ha hear you say that. I commend you for it.

Let me raise a question with you in terms of educational re It seems to me that one of the big problems with educatio search has been the length of time between the input and the tion, social evaluation-what happens to the child later. How suggest that we can compact evaluations so that we can det from our research whether we are having any effect or not?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. Sir, I will not sound glib to you, but I that the Congress in its legislative history of the NIE, say i like to have some answers to that question. The basic proble say, it that it takes a long time for a child to grow up, so what today you don't really appear to have consequences for 25 yea But it is entirely within the range of methodology technique begin seeing differences in rates of change very early on, and to make very accurate forecasts of where things will go.

This is the kind of thing which, if you give good men a li and resources, they are likely to get you good answers. I a

agree with you it is maddening always to be dealing with situations where almost in one lifetime you won't know whether what you did worked or not.

Mr. MEEDS. Do you suppose the National Institute of Education could be a prestigious organization which could give validity to some things that people have been saying for a number of years, for instance, that we ought to be doing more testing of young peoples?

We have some fairly valid methods of testing which we are not employing on a large scale because of social problems and political problems. Can an institute of education help us by focusing national attention on this and saying we ought to be doing more of this?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. I think you raise a very important question, sir, and I would hope the answer to that is yes. One of the things that distresses me is the sort of increasing hostility to testing, on the grounds that tests are somehow not valid. Well, this is a perfectly fair question to raise. Are they or aren't they? Are they culturally biased? Are they biased toward one group or another?

I think this is the kind of question you can put to National Institute of Education and know you are going to get a straight answer. It may not be the answer you like, but you are going to get an honest answer from the best men who work in the field, and the Congress and school board and PTA and the superintendent can say, "I am following the best practice known. That is where they came out at NIE, and I will stay with their finding. I don't know any better."

It gives officials, mothers and parents a sense of whatever they do they are doing it as the best impartial available practice.

Mr. MEEDS. Do you have any suggestions as to what the level of funding of the National Institute of Education ought to be? And if we can expect the administration to support your description adequate level of funding?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. Yes, sir. Obviously Secretary Richardson will be more to the point on that, but I believe it would begin at about $115 million a year, a good part of which would be brought from existing expenditures. I understand Commissioner Marland is already developing a nucleus of young people in OE who would fit into this kind of organization and beginning to have them think about it. I would say, sir, that you start these things out as it occurs. You can't start out full blast, but I would certainly hope to see Dr. Levien has some statistics on this-I would say we ought to be spending at least a quarter billion dollars a year on educational research if we are going to spend $65 billion a year on education.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. MEEDS. Yes.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I believe Dr. Levien of the Rand Corp., who did the study commissioned by the administration on the NIE, suggested that by early 1980 we should be spending $1.1 billion.

Mr. MOYNIHAN. One point one, Mr. Chairman, but that would be over a 10-year rise. You would not start that way.

Mr. MEEDS. I would like to observe in parting here that if you can't be born Greek or Japanese or Chinese or Jewish, the best thing to do perhaps is to surround yourself with them. I married a Chinese girl. My campaign manager is Jewish and he is married to a Japanese, and I am a very good friend to the chairman here.

compensatory education, because people don't arrive at an instituti behind, if you pick them up early enough.

Professor Kagan at Harvard has demonstrated very clearly that different social class level by age 9 months the children are differe Don't let me be held to 9 months, but they already have different ab ties reflecting their class and origin. These reflect money and envir ment, and so forth.

We have much to learn from the principle of preventive medic All of the great changes in health have come from preventive m cine. Doctors don't do much fixing up. They prevent. Compensat education has proved enormously difficult. It almost never succe We now know things we didn't know a decade ago as to why it ne succeeds.

The problem originates very early, at the ages you and Mr. Br mas are talking about. We are beginning to know how to reverse see that it doesn't happen. A doctor out at National Institute of He has been working with poor children here in Washington. He has able to show a decline in IQ starting at about 18 months, in a con group, and he has been able to prevent that with the group he is w ing on. Having prevented the problem, you never have it. Mr. REID. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Mr. Meeds of Washington.

Mr. MEEDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moynihan, it is very good to see you again. And, as u you have never been one to shrink from controversy and you made statements here today which I feel are very provocative will undoubtedly embroil you in more controversy, and I am glad have done so.

I think for years, ever since its inception in this country, we felt that if we simply provide equality of educational opport that we have done our share in this country and that is suffi And I hear for the first time this morning someone say that m providing equality of educational opportunity is not sufficient.

It seems clear to me, after and years of seeing that it hasn't pro real equality, you are saying we have to do more, and I am hap hear you say that. I commend you for it.

Let me raise a question with you in terms of educational res It seems to me that one of the big problems with education search has been the length of time between the input and the e tion, social evaluation-what happens to the child later. How d suggest that we can compact evaluations so that we can dete from our research whether we are having any effect or not?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. Sir, I will not sound glib to you, but I s that the Congress in its legislative history of the NIE, say it like to have some answers to that question. The basic problem say, it that it takes a long time for a child to grow up, so what ] today you don't really appear to have consequences for 25 years But it is entirely within the range of methodology technique to begin seeing differences in rates of change very early on, and pr to make very accurate forecasts of where things will go.

This is the kind of thing which, if you give good men a litt and resources, they are likely to get you good answers. I abs

agree with you it is maddening always to be dealing with situations where almost in one lifetime you won't know whether what you did worked or not.

Mr. MEEDS. Do you suppose the National Institute of Education could be a prestigious organization which could give validity to some things that people have been saying for a number of years, for instance, that we ought to be doing more testing of young peoples?

We have some fairly valid methods of testing which we are not employing on a large scale because of social problems and political problems. Can an institute of education help us by focusing national attention on this and saying we ought to be doing more of this?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. I think you raise a very important question, sir, and I would hope the answer to that is yes. One of the things that distresses me is the sort of increasing hostility to testing, on the grounds that tests are somehow not valid. Well, this is a perfectly fair question to raise. Are they or aren't they? Are they culturally biased? Are they biased toward one group or another?

I think this is the kind of question you can put to National Institute of Education and know you are going to get a straight answer. It may not be the answer you like, but you are going to get an honest answer from the best men who work in the field, and the Congress and school board and PTA and the superintendent can say, "I am following the best practice known. That is where they came out at NIE, and I will stay with their finding. I don't know any better."

It gives officials, mothers and parents a sense of whatever they do they are doing it as the best impartial available practice.

Mr. MEEDS. Do you have any suggestions as to what the level of funding of the National Institute of Education ought to be? And if we can expect the administration to support your description adequate level of funding?

Mr. MOYNIHAN. Yes, sir. Obviously Secretary Richardson will be more to the point on that, but I believe it would begin at about $115 million a year, a good part of which would be brought from existing expenditures. I understand Commissioner Marland is already developing a nucleus of young people in OE who would fit into this kind of organization and beginning to have them think about it. I would say, sir, that you start these things out as it occurs. You can't start out full blast, but I would certainly hope to see-Dr. Levien has some statistics on this I would say we ought to be spending at least a quarter billion dollars a year on educational research if we are going to spend $65 billion a year on education.

Mr. BRADEMAS. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. MEEDS. Yes.

Mr. BRADEMAS. I believe Dr. Levien of the Rand Corp., who did the study commissioned by the administration on the NIE, suggested that by early 1980 we should be spending $1.1 billion.

Mr. MOYNIHAN. One point one, Mr. Chairman, but that would be over a 10-year rise. You would not start that way.

Mr. MEEDS. I would like to observe in parting here that if you can't be born Greek or Japanese or Chinese or Jewish, the best thing to do perhaps is to surround yourself with them. I married a Chinese girl. My campaign manager is Jewish and he is married to a Japanese, and I am a very good friend to the chairman here.