The INTERPRETER. Many of our people, when they get sick, they rather go farther away than to come here, either to Fort Defiance or to Rehoboth hospital. I wonder why it is; whether it is on account of the water, or what it is?

Senator WHEELER. Ask him. I do not know. Why is it?

The INTERPRETER. Many of the patients say they get well quicker over there than they do here.

Senator WHEELER. Tell him if they come here I am sure the doctor will take good care of them, and I am sure these nurses will take good care of them.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement?

The INTERPRETER. He says he would not make these statements if it was not so.

Doctor HAGERTY. Ask him if anybody told him to make that state

ment.

Senator WHEELER. Did anybody ask you to make that statement about the hospital?

The INTERPRETER. Myself. Nobody told me. I seen it with my

own eye.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you ever sent any of your family to the hospital?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator WHEELER. Have you ever been in the hospital yourself? The INTERPRETER. No. He brought those patients in himself.

That is why he knows.

Senator FRAZIER. Is that all?

The INTERPRETER. Yes.

(Witness excused.)

JOHN DIXON was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. What is your name?

Mr. DIXON. John Dixon.

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?

Mr. DIXON. Southeast from here.

Senator FRAZIER. How far?

Mr. DIXON. Twenty-five miles.

Senator FRAZIER. You have a statement to make?

Mr. DIXON. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead.

Mr. DIXON. I want to make a statement on education, about these children going to school here. My children send their children here. When they are small, 12 or 13 years old, they transfer them to some other school without their parents' consent. When their fathers and mothers come here for their child they ask for their child

Senator FRAZIER. And they have sent them to Santa Fe or Phoenix?

Mr. DIXON. To a nonreservation school. So I do not favor that. I wish the Government would get the parents' consent.

Senator FRAZIER. Is the principal of the school here. Are you principal of the school?

Mr. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. You are the principal of the school?
Mr. FISHER. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. How long have you been here?

Mr. FISHER. About eight months.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you hear his statement?

Mr. FISHER. No, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. He said sometimes when the children had finished their sixth grade here and were 12 or 13 years old they were transferred to a nonreservation school without notifying the parents or without the consent of the parents. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. FISHER. No, sir; not since I have been here.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you had experience in other Indian schools?

Mr. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you know of that being done in other places?

Mr. FISHER. Never.

Senator FRAZIER. Thank you.

Mr. DIXON. That is why my people object.

Senator FRAZIER. You people object to that. I do not blame them for objecting to that.

Senator WHEELER. He says that has not been done since he has been here, and it will not be done in the future.

Mr. DIXON. Another thing. More schools ought to be built on the reservation. You fellows come here to help us, spend money here on this reservation, develop the reservation, and develop the Navajos and their stock. Why not spend money on this reservation and build schools, develop our mines right here on the reservation! Senator FRAZIER. You want a school right here on the reservation?

Mr. DIXON. Yes; an agricultural school, a higher school to learn the boys to study their own country. They send them to Sherman Institute where the orange groves are. They learn something over there and they come back and do not know what is back here. I would recommend that an agricultural school be built on our own reservation, so that these boys and girls can turn out here, graduate here, and know their own country.

Senator FRAZIER. There certainly ought to be a school where the boys and girls could learn the things they will have to practice when they come back to the reservation.

Mr. DIXON. That is what I would like to see. Another thing, the Indian Office appropriates so much money for Indian work. They go to work and build hospitals at Albuquerque, $200,000, and then spend money at Sherman Institute or Phoenix, something we never see. Our people never will see it. We do not know how the children. get along over there.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. But you are not the only Indians that the department have to take care of, you know.

Mr. DIXON. I would like to see higher school here, an agricultural school, built right here on the reservation. Here is water and everything they need. There is no reason why the higher school should not be built here. If there is any students who want to go to higher school it is their business for them to go. If they want to go to high

school or Sherman Institute or any other college, if any young boy or girl wants to go to high school, it is their business.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement?

Mr. DIXON. Another thing in reference to the hospital business. This hospital at Fort Defiance and sanitarium, we asked for a sanitarium ever since I have been here; we asked for it. They say we ain't got no money; then they go to work and spend $200,000 to build a hospital in Albuquerque and down in Winslow. How is it they can't build nothing on this reservation? If the Government wants to develop the reservation why not spend it here.

Senator FRAZIER. I think there is a good deal to what you say in regard to that.

Mr. DIXON. My people want to see what the Government is doing. They want to see what the Government is doing for them. This way they do not know what is going on. They can not read.

Senator FRAZIER. Your people want to send their children to school to get an education, do they?

Mr. DIXON. Yes; that is my idea.

Senator FRAZIER. Anything else?

Mr. DIXON. Another thing, about the range business. These fellows are talking about overstocked. An Indian he moves from one place and then he get another range, a summer range. If he is going to have two ranges, how do you fellows figure there is too much land for us? For a thousand head of sheep it takes a big territory. They stay one place one week or 15 days and move some place else, keep moving all the time. I see white men doing the same thing. They lease a great big country. They keep moving around. They have to have a big territory to run sheep. They can not have 10 or 20 acres to run sheep. That is the reason we are overstocked.

We need more land.

Another thing, there is too many ponies. Maybe it is too many ponies. Some 100 to 200 people in this room have two or three ponies. That counts up a lot of ponies.

Senator WHEELER. No; we do not count that a lot of ponies, but you have a lot of wild horses on this reservation that are not doing the Indians any good. You have got to get rid of them. There is no use talking about it, it seems to me. If you want the Government to help you, you have got to cooperate with the Government and get rid of the wild ponies.

Mr. DIXON. We are getting rid of them right along.

Senator WHEELER. You ought to get rid of all of the surplus ponies. You ought to get rid of a lot of these goats and get sheep instead. The sheep will make you more money than the goats. It is for your benefit and not for our benefit. We want to help you. It is very hard to get more land. It is going to be more difficult to get more land in the future. I would like to see you have more land, but we may not be able to get you more land through Congress. However, we want you to build up what land you have and to get the most use out of it that you can. Therefore, you Indians ought to cooperate in order that you may help yourselves. It is not to help us but it is to help you.

Mr. DIXON. I understand that. My tribe, some of them, do not understand it.

Senator FRAZIER. You explain it to them at these chapters or association meetings.

Mr. DIXON. The educated boys come in here and talk English. We do not understand what you are talking about. It ought to be interpreted here so we know what you are talking about.

Senator WHEELER. You boys that understand English and talk English will have to tell them after we are gone. We are going to spend a day here, and that is all the time we can spend here with you. We can not spend any more time here. It is impossible for us to do so.

Mr. DIXON. Another thing they want to bring up is this sheepdipping business. There is not enough dipping on this reservation. There is one dip here, maybe 20 miles to drive sheep and maybe 30 miles. Around this dip 24 families live and clean the range, so they have hard time when the winter come on.

Senator FRAZIER. There should be more dipping vats?
Mr. DIXON. Yes; enough to take care of the range.

Senator WHEELER. How about that, Mr. Superintendent?

Mr. HAMMOND. There were provisions made for two additional vats this year, one at Red Rock and one at Boundary Butte. The Red Rock vat is completed. The materials were purchased for the Boundary Butte vat and when the payments to this fund have been received in sufficient quantity to enable us to finish the Boundary Butte vat it will be completed. We aim to have it done before the beginning of the dipping season on June 10. Everything is bought. All we are waiting for is money for the labor.

Mr. DIXON. We had trouble dipping every year. They hang around 10 days dipping first; then hang around another 10 days and we clean the families out there and they don't leave anything.

Senator FRAZIER. You heard the superintendent's statement that two more dipping vats were being provided. If that is not enough, there will have to be more; that is all.

Mr. DIXON. Another thing, the Indians moves up here for 10 days. The sheep get along all right. We like to have a man to investigate the Chusk Mountain and the Tunichi Mountain. Senator FRAZIER. Have you got stock up there?

Mr. DIXON. When the white man

Mr. HAMMOND. May be I can explain that. Some complaints have been made to me of worm in the head. It is a sheep disease due to the larvae of a fly that infects the sheep that have been held too long in old corrals. I have talked to employees and the stockmen and will take it up with the Indians myself and make a campaign to clean up these old corrals. The veterinary tells me there is absolutely nothing known that will cure this disease.

Senator FRAZIER. They think it is something up there that they eat that makes them sick. It seems to me it ought to be investi gated to find out if there is something they are getting. It is not due to something they are eating; explain to them what it is. Mr. DIXON. They could get busy and weed out the poisonous weeds.

Mr. HAMMOND. I do not think there is any poisonous weeds up there, but we will have it looked up.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. Yes; there is. The forest man is here. Probably he knows.

Mr. HAMMOND. It is a pinguay rubber weed.

Mr. CHISCHILEGE. If money could be gotten some way to clean up the weeds I think it should be cleaned up. The white people do that in Colorado.

Senator WHEELER. The department has a lot of forestry men all over the country not doing anything. They ought to send them up there.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement?

Mr. DIXON. That is all.

(Witness excused.)

HARVEY DIXON was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. Are you a brother to the other Dixon boy that just testified?

Mr. DIXON. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What statement do you want to make.

Mr. DIXON. Awhile ago there was a statement concerning the medical work here.

Senator FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. DIXON. I want to tell you about something here. Sometime ago he is speaking about getting help and he told you he had to go and get help.

Senator WHEELER. The statement was made they had to go off the reservation to get help.

Mr. DIXON. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead.

Mr. DIXON. Sometime ago here-I have got four children. My little boy is sick. I sent the boy to the hospital to get dressed. It was 9 o'clock in the morning, between 9 and 10 in the morning. The boy sat there all day and I got there about noon and he was still sitting there on the stool holding his hand like that [indicating]. I went back and told them to attend to him. I went back again at 5.30 and still he is still sitting there like that. Senator FRAZIER. Is that in this hospital here?

Mr. DIXON. Yes, sir; under this doctor.

Senator FRAZIER. How long ago is that?

Mr. DIXON. I do not remember; probably he has the record of it. Senator FRAZIER. Some time ago.

Mr. DIXON. I took the boy out of the hospital and took him home. I went to the superintendent and told him to phone to Farmington. He called up the doctor that I would be there inside of an hour. Before I go I spoke to the nurse they had here. She is gone_now. She talked in a way I could not do anything with her. So I left and went to see this doctor and he acted the same way. So I told him to go ahead and rest up; I will see some other doctor, I would not bother him. I went to Six. He phoned up for me and I took my car and my wife and the child up to Farmington, and I saw the doctor that is there in town. I saw him right away we went across to the Mission Hospital there. So he got his hand dressed there and