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Senator WHEELER. You tell him we are going to try to get more water on the reservation.

The INTERPRETER. He says they are talking about locating a boarding school in the Mariano Lake district, and he said they would appreciate it if they would put a school over in that district. Senator WHEELER. You tell him we will do the best we can for him.

Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

JOHN DAMON was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. What is your name?

Mr. DAMON. John Damon.

Senator WHEELER. Where do you live?

Mr. DAMON. About 22 miles from here.

Senator WHEELER. Are you a Navajo Indian?

Mr. DAMON. Partly.

Senator WHEELER. Part. Do you have a statement you want to make to the committee?

Mr. DAMON. I just wanted to say I am very glad you came over and tried to get us some land. We believe and we know we have confidence that you will do the best you can for us. We will rely on that. What we want is some more hospitals and some field nurses and some more schools. That is the main thing that we want. Senator WHEELER. We are going to try to see to it that you get some more schools.

Mr. DAMON. Good; I am glad of it.

Senator WHEELER. We are going to see to it that you get some more schools. We are going to try to get you some more hospitals. We have the commissioner here and he is going to do everything he can to get you some more schools and better hospital facilities.

Mr. DAMON. We know you are going to get land for us and do the best you can. I thank you.

Senator WHEELER. We are going to try the best we can, but it is pretty hard to get more land for you. What we want you to do is to improve the land.

Mr. DAMON. We are just asking for what we used to have. It used to be our country, and I do not see no harm in asking for more. even if we do not get it.

Senator WHEELER. No harm in asking for it; no.

(Witness excused.)

NELSON ATACITY was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. Do you have a statement you want to make to us?

Mr. ATACITY. I live out here at Crownpoint, township 21 north. range 13 west. I would like to say a few words to all our friends from Washington and the commissioner about this township here. It is township 21 north, range 13 west. That township where I live in and my neighbors, part of it is fenced. We have an allotment in there. We got more than six allotments in there. We need the allotments. We like to use it but we can not get this allotment because of this fence. They fenced up the township.

Senator WHEELER. What about that?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir; it is fenced. There is a lot of Government fence up in there, too.

Senator WHEELER. Who fenced it?

Mr. STACHER. Some of the stockmen. Mr. Westbrook, I believe. Senator WHEELER. But he has no right to fence Government land. Mr. STACHER. That is just the thing that made a lot of trouble here years ago. There was a lot of land fenced up here, including allotments, and the land office received instructions to have the fences taken down. Secretary Fall said to leave the fences, so they have been there ever since.

Senator WHEELER. Well, it is against the law for them to fence public land. They ought to be taken down. I wish you would make à note of that, Mr. Commissioner. See that these Indians' lands that are fenced are unfenced; that the fences are taken down so that these Indians can use their lands.

Mr. STACHER. Here is the situation within that area. The railroad land is leased to Mr. Sargeant for 10 years. He has had it leased for about 15 years, and I think he has some arrangement with Mr. Westbrook in reference to the use of that land within that area. There are special allotments covering land outside of the fence. So that is a difficult and technical proposition. Of course, it cuts away from the use of the allotment. We can not use that allotment unless we have water. We have a big lake down below there. That has been one of our bad troubles here in fencing up some of our allotments within certain areas with these big fences. There will be two or three townships under one fence.

Senator WHEELER. If an Indian has an allotment down there, he is entitled to get on his allotment at any time and nobody has any right to keep him off of the allotment by a fence. Are there many other cases of that kind?

Mr. STACHER. There are quite a number of other cases.

Senator WHEELER. What about this?

Mr. I. K. WESTBROOK. I have that fenced, but last year, why, I let this fellow in there and he stayed in there about 30 days with his entire herd of sheep.

Mr. DAMON. Six days-just one week.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I am not changing my statement.

Senator WHEELER. You have no right to fence his allotment.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Mr. Stacher has some land down there. He put up 6 miles of fence. He took it down, and I have used the range up there until recently.

Senator WHEELER. The Government has a right to fence its own. lands.

Mr. WESTBROOK. The Government land is in there just the same and I have land in there, too. I have used this pasture up until recently, but the Frisco leased it to the Government and they have

it now.

Senator WHEELER. They have this land that you have fenced?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Not that the Indian was talking about, but in another part of the township there.

Senator WHEELER. Well, these Indians are entitled to have the use of their land.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I have never refused them to come in and use the land at any time, but we have to put up fences for protection, just as Mr. Lee told you this afternoon.

Senator WHEELER. I know; but you have no right to fence in an Indian's allotment.

Mr. WESTBROOK. We will have it fenced and pay for the allotment any time we do not have sufficient land outside to care for the

Senator WHEELER. Do you run your cattle over his allotment? Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; the land on the outside. I have had half the township land on the outside that they used all of this time. Mr. STACHER. Yes.

Mr. WESTBROOK. The Indians use half the township outside.

Senator WHEELER. I wish you would make a report of every allotment that any stockman has fenced down there belonging to the Indians.

Senator BRATTON. How much Indian land have you within your fence?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I expect there are about three sections.

Senator BRATTON. You have a half township on the outside? Mr. WESTBROOK. I had, until recently, 8,887 acres of school land outside that the Indians use and I made a lease on it that I do not use at all.

Senator WHEELER. It ought to be straightened out someway.

Mr. DAMON. That is what I would like to have straightened out. We need the allotment to use it. The Government gave us the allotment.

Senator BRATTON. Do you understand the situation, Mr. Stacher? That is to say, that the Indians are using more land belonging to Mr. Westbrook on the ouside of his fence than he has of theirs inside of the fence?

Mr. STACHER. We are using several sections of Mr. Westbrook's lands and these allotments are within that fenced area, but part of the land is on the outside to the north. We have a large lake in there about 2 miles long just outside of the fenced area and this allotment would be within reach of the water if they were occupying that allotment. This is coming up in an exchange in the very near future and we hope to work this out so we will have a better understanding as to that township in there.

Senator BRATTON. I would like to get a direct answer to the question. Are the Indians using more land belonging to Mr. Westbrook on the outside of his fence than he has belonging to them on the inside of his fence?

Mr. STACHER. How many allotments within that township; or do you remember?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I think there were about three sections allotted in all of the pastures I have.

Mr. STACHER. You have the school sections in 20-12 and 21-12? Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. STACHER. How many school sections have you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. In 21-12?

Mr. STACHER. Yes.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I have two.

Mr. STACHER. In 20-12?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I believe there were just two in that.

Mr. STACHER. You have four sections and there are four sections in there.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I am speaking up until recently when I was paying the lease on the Frisco lands.

Senator BRATTON. Even so, it may be and probably is a technical violation of the law.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, we are all doing it, if it is wrong for all of us.

Senator WHEELER. It is wrong for all of you to do it. Perhaps you think you are right about it, but here is an Indian. He has an allotment. He wants to get on his allotment and he has a right to get on it.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Certainly. I have never refused any Indian coming on to his allotment.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Would you help us out in making the exchange that is proposed?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; I will in any way I can.

Mr. STACHER. Can you not cut out the allotments and put them on the outside?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. That is the thing to do.

Mr. WESTBROOK. It will be a lot better to do that. They have not any water in there where their allotments are. They can not use it. Senator BRATTON. You and Mr. Stacher work that out.

Mr. WESTBROOK. There has never been any contention in reference to that. This is the first time there has been any contention about that.

Senator WHEELER. Make a report for the benefit of the committee and give us a detailed report of all the lands that are fenced in or the allotments that are fenced in.

Mr. STACHER. I will do that.

Senator WHEELER. Then make a statement of how it can be worked out, if it is possible to be worked out, and see if you can not get busy and work it out in the near future.

Mr. STACHER. We have a number of similar propositions. Some will be taken care of in this exchange and the consolidation.

Senator WHEELER. When is this consolidation going to take place? Mr. STACHER. Right now. The first initial exchange has been put through. The others have been delayed pending the outcome of this first exchange. That is consummated and we have several others that we are lining up as fast as we can. It will go forward faster in the future than in the past.

Senator WHEELER. It seems to me it has been awfully slow in going ahead, and I think you ought to expedite it.

Mr. STACHER. It took more than one year to get the first exchange. Senator BRATTON. Are you leasing any land belonging to the Indians?

Mr. STACHER. That is, to white people?

Senator BRATTON. Yes.

Mr. STACHER. Only in a way to bring about an adjustment so as to make a common or technical proposition. Mr. Westbrook is paying for the lease on one township for the Indians for some allotments he has within his township fenced over here. He did not have

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any water in there, and the other area is much more valuable to us than the allotments would be, because they could not use them if they got in there on account of no water. He has been there several years.

Senator BRATTON. You are not leasing any large areas belonging to the Navajos?

Mr. STACHER. No, sir; occasionally the Indians do lease a water hole, especially out on the east side and the north side, to the stockmen that come in for winter range. They get $500 for the use of a water hole. They get paid for the water hole.

Senator WHEELER. The individual Indian?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Are there water holes on the allotments?

Mr. STACHER. Some of them have water holes, yes, sir; and a little reservoir.

Senator WHEELER. Are the water holes located on the individual allotments or are they located on the reservation?

Mr. STACHER. On the allotment.

It is not near the reservation.

Senator WHEELER. Not near the reservation?

Mr. STACHER. No; on allotments.

Senator WHEELER. You make out a detailed report and send it down to the committee right away giving all of the lands that are fenced in belonging to the Indians.

Mr. STACHER. Yes; I will do that.

Senator WHEELER. Is that all you have?

Mr. DAMON. That is all.

Senator WHEELER. They will work it out for you.

(Witness excused.)

GERONIMO CESTELE was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. What is your name!

Mr. CESTELE. Geronimo Cestele.

Senator WHEELER. Where do you live?

Mr. CESTELE. In the Star Lake country.

Senator WHEELER. You have a statement you want to make?
Mr. CESTELE. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. All right. Make it.

Mr. CESTELE. There are a few things I would like to mention down there.

Senator WHEELER. Speak up loud.

Mr. CESTELE. Those Indians out there are having a hard time over these Mexicans here which are crowding us out over there.

Senator WHEELER. The Mexicans are crowding you out?

Mr. CESTELE. Yes; there are some allotments there they are trying to fence up. I think they got to about the township line now. They are trying to keep the Navajos out now. The Mexican's name is Tivoto Alisia Levatto.

Senator WHEELER. This Mexican is fencing in some of the Indian land?

Mr. CESTELE. He is trying to now.

Senator WHEELER. Have you reported it to the superintendent? Mr. CESTELE. No; I have not reported it yet.

Senator WHEELER. You take it up with the superintendent here. He will fix you up and take care of it, protecting your interests

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