The INTERPRETER. He said when it rains, when he has a good season he raises about a thousand pounds of corn.

Senator BRATTON. What do you do with it?

The INTERPRETER. They use it for food and use it for the horses. Senator BRATTON. Do most of the Indians in the Star Lake country raise corn?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; they plant corn but sometimes they have a dry season and it does not grow.

Senator BRATTON. Do practically all of the Navajos in that country have sheep?

The INTERPRETER. Not all of them have sheep. Some of them have sheep and some have not.

Senator BRATTON. Do most of them have goats?

The INTERPRETER. He says they have more goats. They have goats at nearly every hogan.

Senator BRATTON. Do most of them have more goats than sheep? The INTERPRETER. They have not very many goats; only a few. Senator BRATTON. Do they have more goats than sheep or more sheep than goats?

The INTERPRETER. About the same, he says.

Senator WHEELER. Has the superintendent and the agent around here been urging the Navajos to cut down the number of goats and to increase the number of sheep?

The INTERPRETER. No; the agent has never advised him to do away with the goats.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him I think he is a pretty good Indian, but I think all these Indians here ought to cut down on the number of goats they have because these goats eat up the range so that the sheep can not get enough to eat. They can eat some of the sheep just the same as goats and they can also sell the sheep, whereas they can not sell their goats.

Senator BRATTON. What do you do with 20 horses?

The INTERPRETER. He said during the time that they sold the horses and did away with a lot of horses that is what he had left. He said he has a few. He uses some of them for riding purposes, some for wagons. He uses them for wagons.

Senator WHEELER. He does not need 20 horses though.

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he says that is quite a few, but at the same time he uses them for riding, and at this time of the season some of them die off and then some of them die because of old age.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him 10 horses ought to be plenty for him. The reason I am saying this to him is because of the fact I want to help these Indians produce a better grade of sheep and have more feed for the sheep. That is the way they have to make their living, is through the sheep.

The INTERPRETER. He says they are doing away with a lot of horses and in time they hardly won't have any horses. We have a shortage of land and then the white men are coming into our reservation and he says pretty soon we won't have any horses and we won't have enough to graze horses on anyway.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him if he does not get rid of some of his horses and some of his goats he will not have enough feed to feed his sheep on and then he will be in a bad way. You tell him the Government at Washington is going to put some wells out there so

that they will have more water for their sheep, but when they do that they want the Indians to help out by cutting down on the num ber of goats they have and the number of horses they have.

The INTERPRETER. He says they are in need of water. He says at the present time they have to dig wells with a shovel down in the arroyas and he has to draw water with a bucket in order to draw enough water for their sheep.

Senator WHEELER. All right.

The INTERPRETER. He said that is all.
Senator WHEELER. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

INCLY BEGA was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Chee Platero (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator WHEELER. What is your name?
The INTERPRETER. Incly Bega.

Senator WHEELER. Where do you live?
The INTERPRETER. Eight miles south.
Senator WHEELER. How old are you?
The INTERPRETER. Thirty-four.

Senator WHEELER. Are you married?
The INTERPRETER. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. How many children have you?
The INTERPRETER. Three.

Senator WHEELER. Do your children go to school?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; one attends the school and the other two are at home.

Senator WHEELER. How many sheep have you?

The INTERPRETER. One thousand and one hundred.

Senator WHEELER. How many goats?

The INTERPRETER. Two hundred and forty.

Senator WHEELER. How many horses?

The INTERPRETER. Five saddle horses and two driving mules. Senator WHEELER. You are a rich Indian. What kind of house do you live in-a hogan?

The INTERPRETER. A hogan. He started to build a house but he has not roofed it yet.

Senator WHEELER. Are you a judge?

The INTERPRETER. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. A good judge?

The INTERPRETER. He does not know.

Senator WHEELER. Do you have a statement you want to make to us?

The INTERPRETER. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. All right.

The INTERPRETER. He says he lives on the edge of this agency or this reservation and he says he knows you have come a long ways to see him and to see them. I have always wished at some time or other he could see some one from Washington.

Senator WHEELER. All right. Tell him to go ahead.

The INTERPRETER. He said they have very small allotments and the sheep are increasing all the time and the cattle are increasing all the time, but still, he says, the land seems to remain the same size. He wishes you can help to increase the land and add more

land to the reservation on which they can graze their stock. He said he is not old yet. He is a young man. His forefathers lived on the land where he is located now and he wishes to increase the land and get more allotments right around where he is at the present time. Senator WHEELER. Go ahead.

The INTERPRETER. And they are badly in need of water. He says 160 acres is not enough for stock and they need more land.

Senator WHEELER. You ask him if he does not think he can get these Indians to cut down on the number of goats they have so that the sheep can get more feed.

The INTERPRETER. About four years ago we had goats, spotted goats, black and white, and all sorts of colors, but Mr. Stacher advised him to get a better grade of goats, so he got Angora goats. Now he says he has Angora goats.

Senator WHEELER. Can he not get the other Indians to do away with these spotted goats they have and get sheep instead of goats. The INTERPRETER. He says he has spoken to the Indians several times about not having and keeping spotted goats.

Senator WHEELER. Do they pay any attention to what he says? The INTERPRETER. Yes; some of them listen and have done it and tried to follow his advice, he says.

Senator WHEELER. I understand that you do a lot of good work in the chapter. Will you tell us about that?

The INTERPRETER. About two years ago he started to talk to the farming chapters among the Indians, trying to better the condition of the Indians, and he was elected president of the chapter. In that way, he says, he has advised the Indians to better their condition around their home and elsewhere.

Senator WHEELER. That is fine.

The INTERPRETER. He said they have been working on the roads since then, building better homes, but, he says, they do not have enough money with which they can buy oats for the horses and they have not any money to buy glass for houses which they have tried. to build, and the roofing material that they would like to have to build their homes with. He said if they could get some sawmills in on the reservation where there is timber by which they can make their own lumber they would build better homes.

Senator WHEELER. Is there timber on the reservation?

Mr. STACHER. Not on the reservation, but in this New Mexico-Arizona land area there are several million feet of mature lumber in there. There are several sawmills. We are hoping to buy that area and put in a mill of our own, by which we can solve this problem better.

The INTERPRETER. He said he never received an education, but he said through Mr. Stacher and through other stockmen he has learned to follow the advice that they have given him and they have tried to follow the advice and tried to live a better life, he says, and build a better home.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him that is fine and we appreciate it. The INTERPRETER. If they could drill several more wells throughout his district and put in a sawmill where the Indians can get their lumber and give them enough money to buy oats for their horses, give them enough money to buy glass and roofing, and other things to build homes, he would appreciate it very much. He knows the

Indians would build better homes. We have always tried to follow the advice of the agent to better their homes, but, he says, the railroad has been shipping in Mexicans from the outside and has laid off most of the Navajos and they have given the Mexicans most of the work that the Navajos used to do.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him that Mr. Scattergood is going to take that up with the Santa Fe and try to correct that for him.

The INTERPRETER. He says he looks like a man who would keep his word and accomplish something for us, and I hope he does it, and he will always appreciate that.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Thank you.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him he can do it.

The INTERPRETER. That is all he wanted to say.
Senator WHEELER. Thank you very much.

(Witness excused.)

BECENTI was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Grant Baloo (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator WHEELER. What is your name?

The INTERPRETER. Becenti.

Senator WHEELER. Ask him if he has a statement he wants to make?

The INTERPRETER. He said he live a good life like these young people are living. Now, he said, he gave his services to the Government. He said he worked. He was under 26 officers. For that reason, he says, he can face anybody without shame. He says he never lie and he never let that into his knowledge and he never makes no trouble for anybody. He says in connection with the land of the Navajos that there has been a dispute. He said he spent eight months at St. Louis. He says it is the same all over this country, there are some bad people and some good people mixed. He says his days are numbered, but still at the same time he wants to have the other people, the younger generation, to live such a life as he led. He says years back he could just realize what life has been for the Indians, but he says, these days now it is like you are in a state where you can improve yourself better. He says he has been scouting at Fort Wingate here. He enlisted there, and he says he was in that uprising with Mescalero Apaches. He says he was in the place where there was ore and silver and he wished he had grabbed some of that silver.

Senator WHEELER. What he wants is a pension; is that so? The INTERPRETER. Yes. He says it is about time to give up his hope, but he is not going to give up even though his days are numbered.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him this is Senator Bratton. Senator Bratton tried to get him a pension and will try at the next Congress to get a pension for him.

The INTERPRETER. Yes.
Senator WHEELER. All right.

(Witness excused.)

Senator WHEELER. Are there any other Indians that desire to be

heard?

CASAMERO was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Chee Platero (who was sworn as interpreter) as follows:

Senator WHEELER. What is your name?

The INTERPRETER. Casamero.

Senator WHEELER. Have you got a statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Tell him to make it as brief as he can.

The INTERPRETER. A long time ago, starting from the origination of the Navajo, the first one was born. He died of old age, and another one was born, and then 12 more were born, and they all died of old age. He says the same way with woman. There was 12 of them born. He says on his land that he wants, he wants to hold it, and he is not willing to turn the land loose. He says he has a feeling for himself, he has improvements, and he says the Indians feel the same way and he wants to be spokesman for the whole tribe. They talk about land all day and you talked about sheep all day. They tried to increase the sheep in the land business. It may seem they have a lot of land but, he says, they are crowded on this reservation. He says he entered the service a long time ago as a scout. He went to Mexico. He said that is how he earned this medal on his discharge at the time. When he came back his commanding officer was Mariano. His scout leader was Mariano. Then when he had completed his service, when they had formed a treaty with the Apaches, he returned to Fort Wingate and he did not have anything else to do. He said this man Mariano, after he had returned and was discharged, give him land, allotted land between Zuni and Fort Wingate, a tract of land between Fort Wingate and Zuni. He said that formed a boundary along that mesa on the other side of Fort Wingate and the Zuni Mountain. At the Blue Water Dam and the long hay stack, that is where the boundary was at that time, and at Brojier Lake. That is this side of San Mateo. That boundary was formed over toward Cabezon and down toward Star Lake.

Senator WHEELER. Tell him to make his story brief.

The INTERPRETER. He says that is all he come for. That is the only statement he wanted to make here. He says his home is near Mariano Lake.

Mr. JOHN PERRY. He wants to extend the reservation beyond hay stack proper to the other side of Sand Springs and around up here [indicating on map]. That used to be our boundary. He is trying to get you to extend the reservation.

The INTERPRETER. He says they are lacking in grazing land very much, and if the old boundary was formed again and they could get the land back where the boundary was, they would have more grazing land.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him we will try to do what we can, but it is pretty hard to get it back.

The INTERPRETER. He says he lives around Mariano Lake. He said they could get more dirt up against the bank to hold the water and it would hold more water. He said the dam has broken several times, and Mr. Stacher has worked there several times, he says, to rebuild the dam.