that they use 300,000 acres to graze 30,000 sheep. It was also mentioned that Sylvester Mirabal uses 200,000 acres for grazing 20,000 sheep. In these two cases it will be noted that they use approximately 10 acres of land per sheep. The records show that the Indians under this jurisdiction have 202,900 sheep and goats, 1,500 cattle, and 6,000 horses now being grazed on an area of approximately 1,267,000 acres. The ratio of forage used by these cattle and horses would be equal to approximately 45,000 head of sheep. The approximate total in regard to this ratio would be the equivalent of 247,000 head of sheep owned by Navajo Indians. This will bear out the fact that approximately 5.1 acres per head are being used by the Navajos, while the white stockmen are using approximately 10 acres per head.

This matter is brought out merely to call attention to the fact that the Indian stock are compelled to be grazed on an area that is entirely too small for the proper usage of the range.

Even under the best of range management this area would prove inadequate, although there is room for much improvement in the form of water development, adoption of a range-management plan, grading up of stock, and the elimination of most of the goats now owned by the Navajos.

Just on a basis of comparison, if the present number of stock owned by Navajos is placed on the same acreage per head basis with the white stockmen, of 10 acres per head of sheep, the total acreage necessary for Navajo stock will be 2,470,000 acres, which would be an increase of approximately 1,203,000 acres to their present holdings.

However, if the present number of stock is to be efficiently managed, it would be necessary to secure additional acreage to make up a total of at least 2,000,000 acres, which would be an increase of approximately 793,000 acres to their present holdings.

Respectfully submitted.

Approved: May 4, 1931.

WALTER ENBOM,

Senior Forest Ranger.
MARVIN D. LONG.
Alotting Clerk.

S. F. STACHER, Superintendent.

Senator WHEELER. I understand there are two white men who have a long way to go. We will hear those gentlemen first and then hear the remainder of the Indians afterwards.

Is Mr. Brown here?

C. A. BROWN was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. State your name?

Mr. BROWN. C. A. Brown.

Senator WHEELER. Do you have a statement you want to make. Mr. Brown.

Mr. BROWN. Well, the statement I have to make is on land. I corroborate Mr. Stacher's statement in every particular. I am in the sheep business. My home is in Durango, Colo., but I own land in New Mexico and I run my sheep into New Mexico six months in the year. Durango, Colo., is only 24 miles from the State line and in a mountainous country. It is not as high an altitude country as this, but it is in the Rocky Mountains and the snow gets deep. We go to the high range in the summer and go back down in the winter. I have been out on the Navajo Reservation since 1912 and I have got acquainted with the Navajos and the Navajo conditions and I found a different man than I expected to meet, a much better citizen than I expected to find as I got acquainted with him. He is very honorable. I am running about 3,500 head of sheep. I have run as high as 5,000. I have feed stored for them in just common frame houses. I have never had a pound stolen by them or anything of the kind. They work for me a great deal herding sheep and do the work first class. I have found them to be good workers and very dependable.

Senator WHEELER. Do you find that they steal your tools or anything from you?

Mr. BROWN. I had one that stole one sheep from me. That is all he ever stole from me.

Senator WHEELER. That was not very bad.

Mr. BROWN. If he were an American he would have stolen the whole herd. The Indians work there and are doing the best they can and the best he knows how and the best he has been taught in a way. They need this land. If they are not given this land and some way to support themselves, it is only a matter of a few years until the Government is going to take the Indians and take care of them. The allotment of 160 acres does not amount to much. You said when Mr. Stacher was on the stand you thought he had been very slow in selling the idea to them. In some instances that is true, but the American people have been just as slow in connection with the sheep business. I have been in the sheep business for 34 years and the sheep business is not run now like it was then. I have in mind a prominent man with his people. He is the head of one of our organizations and one of the best educated men regarding the sheep business we have. His people were in the sheep business ahead of him. He was raised in the cattle business. He is a college man. He does not grasp this. He is just as slow as the Navajo Indian. He just will not make changes to the conditions of to-day. The Indian is not the only one that has not done that. I think it is unjust for us Americans to own land in there. I own land there and I am willing to turn my land back to the Indians. It is unjust to come to this committee and want to take up this country.

There are other places we can live and we can not live here; at least we can not make a living for our families; however, we can come in the winter and get some winter range and do very well. I feel just as Mr. Stacher feels, that the land ought to be taken off the market and away from homestead filing or anything else until this question is settled, and it ought to be done immediately. Anything that has not been passed or accepted I feel it ought to be rejected right now. Two weeks ago Sunday there were five cars of people came out here from Indiana. They are filing. These men were men that had worked for wages before and they figured 640 acres was a lot of land, but this was just grazing land. Six hundred and forty acres they thought was a terrible lot of land and they thought they could do something with it. Well, they came there. They will file on this land. They can not make it. They file on the land and it takes years to come back and a great deal of poison grass grows on it, which is disastrous to the stock and cattle. I understand they charge them $200 for locating, $50 down and the other $150 in some kind of pay

ments.

Senator WHEELER. What kind of service do they render to these people to be paid for?

Mr. BROWN. I do not see any service, only peddling their property. Senator WHEELER. They are not peddling their land. They are on public lands.

Mr. BROWN. I will give you the information given to me in Farmington. Mr. Woods, Mr. Armstrong, and another one spoke of the schools. That has been spoken of here very extensively. It is true enough if the Indian is educated and often go back to his reservation,

that is all there is in life for him. However, I think, one of the greatest needs in the world is to give this Indian an education. According to my observation of the Utes and Navajos, the day school has not been the school that the boarding school has been. I feel there ought to be more than one boarding school. Mr. Stacher spoke of the boarding school at Star Lake. They ought to have a small school up north. I think there should be one, for instance, over north in San Juan County. There is room for one there. There is water developed there where the water may be piped right into the building at just the cost of the pipe. You would not have to raise the water to exceed 45 feet. The Indian that lives in a hogan does not seem to know to get up early and get the children ready, give them the proper food and clothing to go to school, and get them there on time. That is my observation and that has partly been the failure of the day school. I am in favor of the boarding school. I feel that is better for them.

Now, from the San Juan River, north of here, down to Pueblo Bonito, a distance of about 45 miles, there are about 1,600 Indians. They have approximately somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 goats and sheep, which they are making their living on. So I feel if they can take that number of sheep, why he is certainly entitled to the country that we people down here want.

In reference to the subject of goats you asked a number of times if they were profitable. Å goat is not a very profitable animal, even when mohair is good or there is an open market for mohair; but there is no open market at this time and the goat and kids are very much of a loss to run with the sheep. They butt the ewes around just before lambing and that causes a great loss of lambs. I have not had a goat in there for years and would not let one stay there. If it is just the milk of the goat that is all the profit I can see in the goat.

When Mr. Lee was being questioned and making his statement he spoke of this high country where this snow gets too deep. That is true. I corroborate his statement there. They could go down to the lower country just as we do with our sheep. We can winter our sheep over there in 2 feet of snow. Of course, we feel some concentrates, but it has only been in the last 10 years that the American people have fed their sheep. That is one thing the American people can not grasp. We have a brush there that they live on during the summer. You take 6 or 8 inches of snow and the sheep will do better than if there was no snow at all. We appreciate that snow as far as that is concerned.

That is about all I have to say. Mr. Stacher's statement of what ought to be done with this land I am very pleased and proud to corroborate and urge, just as he did, that immediate action be taken on this. If it is not done, certainly it is only a matter of a few years until the Government has to feed the Indian and take care of him. Senator WHEELER. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

O. J. CARSON was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. State your name.

Mr. CARSON. O. J. Carson.

Senator WHEELER. Where do you live, Mr. Carson?

Mr. CARSON. I live here at Farmington.

Senator WHEELER. What is your business?

Mr. CARSON. Indian trader and woolgrower.

Senator WHEELER. How long have you been in this section?
Mr. CARSON. I have lived here about 12 years.

Senator WHEELER. You have a statement you want to make to the committee?

Mr. CARSON. Why, I do not know as I want to add anything to what Mr. Brown has already said or to what Mr. Stacher has said. Senator WHEELER. You agree with them?

Mr. CARSON. Yes. That will save you a whole lot of time.
Senator WHEELER. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

Senator BRATTON. Mr. Charles D. Hager wrote a very splendid thesis on the subject of range management on Indian reservation. I think it might be inserted in the record at this point.

(The thesis referred to above is as follows:)

THESIS RANGE MANAGEMENT ON INDIAN RESERVATIONS

For the past 15 or 20 years I have been closely associated with the grazing conditions on the Indians of the Southwest. For this reason, I have chosen the subject above mentioned for the basis of my thesis, principally for two

reasons:

1. Because it is obvious that little attention has or is being given the important problem of range conservation; and

2. Because of the fact that on all the reservations conditions are almost ideal, under proper range management, to handle this problem in an economical manner. In nearly every case the reservations are located in a country comprised of mountains, woodland, and open country that can easily be divided into natural grazing zones, with nearly natural barriers to divide these zones. Under this subject a brief outline of conditions as they exist now and the damage being done both to the range and the stock, is presented.

In the first place I would like to make it clear that the livestock industry on all the southwestern Indian reservations is the chief industry. Upon this industry depends the very life of the Indians, and it is not quite clear why so little attention has been given this important problem.

A few years ago the reservations were nearly all covered with an excellent forage growth, and at that time the Indians owned only a few head of stock. A large part of the reservations was leased to white stockmen, and as these stockmen were protected by their leases to certain ranges, the stockmen took care that their range was not overstocked.

When the Government began encouraging stock raising among the Indians, and issuing stock to them, the stock was distributed in small bands to individuals. On some of the reservations, this stock was sheep, and on others it was cattle.

On reservations where the sheep predominate-taking the Navajo Indian Reservation as an example--the Indian takes his small band of sheep, varying from perhaps 15 in number to a few hundred, and moves to some place where there is permanent water, and there he builds his hogan. He may be alone here, or there may be a regular settlement of Indians. The policy, in either case, is to graze the range closest to the water first, and gradually work outwards for better feed as that next to the water is used up.

The range around and within grazing distance to the water is never relieved until it has been grazed to the fullest extent. When this has been accomplished he or they move their herds to some other watering place and the same procedure takes place here.

There are hundreds of these small bands of sheep scattered over hundreds of square miles, and as the policy is much the same over the entire area, there are thousands of acres of good grass land destroyed each year. This situation has been allowed to continue until there are miles of bare areas around the permanent watering places completely denuded of vegetation, except in some places in the spring where there is a scanty weed crop, which does not, as a rule, carry much food value.

The stock is brought in to these watering places day after day over the same trails. and as these areas are bare and without feed, the stock usually

form in long lines trailing each other and this causes deep trails to be worn into the bare soil. These deep trails become objects for the worst form of erosion with which we have to contend. When the rains come the following year there is little vegetation to hold the water and practically all of it vanishes in the run-off. The water finds its way to the trails cut by the stock and in a short time these stock trails have developed into deep, dry washes. The vegetation has been destroyed to such an extent that there is practically no ground covering, and what little there is is absorbed by the soil, disappears by evaporation in a few days. The beating action on the uncovered soil by the heavy rains, the hot sun, and high winds, have a tendency to form a hard coating on the top of the soil, so that the next rain has little chance of penetrating the soil, with the result that nearly all the rainfall runs off.

In numerous cases the sheep are herded by small children on horseback, and they think nothing of driving their sheep 12 to 15 miles in one day. They seem to think so long as they are able to stand on their feet the harm done to the sheep by these long drives amounts to nothing.

Generally speaking, the Navajos are a nomadic people, and for this reason keeping a check on their stock and their condition is almost an impossibility. There are many efficient men employed as stockmen in the Indian Service, men who really know the stock business, but under the present conditions, they are unable to give the Indian the benefit of their knowledge. In most cases superintendents on the different reservations are not so familiar with the livestock industry as they are on other subjects, and their other duties are so many that they are unable to give as much attention to this subject as it requires. The stockmen are more often used for other purposes than they are in the capacity of stockmen for which they are employed, and for this reason no matter how efficient they are in their line of work they are unable to devote the time and attention to the work that is required if they are to make an appreciable showing.

On the Navajo Indian Reservation the stockmen's problems are increased in the proper handling of the stock, particularly the sheep herds, as already stated. These herds are in very small bands and are scattered over hundreds of square miles. A herd may be located here to-day, and a week from now be miles away, with no way of telling in which direction this herd has gone. When a Navajo makes up his mind to move, he takes everything he owns, and although his move may be to visit a friend or relative, or for some other reason, but in either case his sheep herd goes along with him. The stockmen may not see him or his herd of sheep again for months.

Sheep are brought into the same bed ground night after night for weeks, or even months, and large bare areas are always to be found in such places, completely devoid of forage plants. No method of dividing the range for grazing at different times of the year is in use, although on all reservations the different elevations are ideal for this method of division. In the lower regions that furnish excellent winter grazing, with a cover in most cases of grama grass, year around grazing is carried on, and at no time of the year is this type of grassland given a rest until it is so thoroughly overgrazed that the stock have to be removed to avoid starvation. The woodland zones are likewise overgrazed; that is, no rest from grazing is allowed, to afford the plants a chance to reestablish a healthy growth. The higher mountain zones are the only ones that are not overgrazed. In this section the stockmen that live here have an abundance of forage for their use during the summer. which is caused by the absence of other stockmen going to these regions for the summer grazing. As the snow forces the Indians from the mountains in the wintertime, their stock is moved to the lower regions which are already overgrazed, and an additional burden is forced on the lower regions, which, owing to their excessive use, they are unable to meet.

Where cattle are predominant on the reservations, as in the White Mountain Apache Indian Reservation in Arizona, conditions are equally as bad or worse than those mentioned above; although, overgrazing, as a whole, on the entire reservation is not so noticeable as on the Navajo Indian Reservation. Except for the tribal herds on some of the reservations, the cattle were issued out much in the same manner as were the sheep; that is, a few head were issued to individual Indians, and he in turn was allowed to choose his own range, much in the same manner as those that were issued sheep. By locating at or near some permanent watering place, the grazing methods used are the same in both cases, with no thought being given to the protection of forage plants, and with those within reach of the water naturally being used first