Mr. ASHCROFT. Because these heavy sheep will not stand the range like the lighter sheep will; that is, where they do not have sufficient

grass.

Senator FRAZIER. They can not travel as far for water or for feed?.

Mr. ASHCROFT. They can not travel as far and they can not stand the range as well as the lighter sheep can stand it.

Senator WHEELER. What kind of sheep do they have-Romneys? Mr. ASHCROFT. They have the Romneys, partly improved.

Senator WHEELER. Do you not think the Romney will stand the range?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Not that the Navajos have out here. I do not think they will.

Senator WHEELER. What is that?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Not the ones that these Navajos have. I do not think they will; no, sir.

Senator WHEELER. What kind of sheep do you think they ought to have which will stand this range here?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I do not believe there is any sheep that will stand it. Senator WHEELER. That is a rather discouraging statement it seems to me. What do these white men do. If they will not stand the range, what are we going to raise except these old scrubs?

Mr. ASHCROFT. The white man has a protected range. This is a checkerboard country. They lease the railroad sections, the odd sections, and the Navajos have most of the even sections and the white men has his protected range some place else. When the green feed starts in the checkerboard country he grazes off the grass and leaves the Navajo nothing but the wind.

Senator WHEELER. Do you mean the white stockman, when the grass starts to grow and the feed is good, gets there first and grazes the range which the Navajos should have and leaves the Navajos no feed for their sheep. Is that what you mean?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Why is it that the Government does not protect the Indians and keep the white stockmen off there?

Mr. ASHCROFT. They would have to buy this land or lease it, as it looks to me, to protect them.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. This is one of the best problems of consolidation that we have.

Senator WHEELER. I understand, but I still do not understand why the department is not doing its duty. It is not doing its duty if it does not protect the Indians and see that the white men do not let their sheep eat up all of his feed.

Mr. ASHCROFT. They have been talking of blocking that country for several years.

Senator WHEELER. If the white men can go in and steal the Indians' feed, I do not see why the department did not do something. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. The country is not fenced.

Senator WHEELER. Well, whether the country is fenced or not. It does not make any difference whether the country is fenced. You give me a competent herder and I will see to it that somebody does not steal my feed.

Mr. ASHCROFT. But when the white man has the railroad land. leased he has a right to go in there.

Senator WHEELER. He has a right to take his but he has not any right to take the Indians'.

Mr. ASHCROFT. It is a proposition to keep track of a large flock of sheep and to keep them off a 160-acre allotment.

Senator WHEELER. The result of it is that the stockman simply gets the best of the Indian down here; is that it?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I could not say that he does. The Navajo gets the white man's grass just about the same way.

Senator WHEELER. But you told me a moment ago that you could not have any good sheep down there-Romneys or any other good stock-because of the fact that the white man got the feed.

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes; that is correct.

Senator WHEELER. And the only thing that the Indians could have was these old scrubs which they have been raising for years. Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. Well, now, how about such a situation on the reservation generally? Can the Indians ever expect to raise this good grade of sheep around here?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I do not believe they can with the number of stock they have. It seems to me like they will have to reduce the amount of sheep or get more land, one of the two. The country is overgrazed now.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Is it overgrazed down your way, too?
Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. One of their greatest needs is more land?
Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir; more land and less stock.

Senator FRAZIER. They need the stock, too, do they not?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How about the goats? A lot of Indians have stated they have more goats than sheep.

Mr. ASHCROFT. I do not know about this country around the reservation here, but in my own district there are very few goats. Senator WHEELER. Very few?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Perhaps Mr. Stacher, the superintendent, could explain this.

Senator WHEELER. We will get to that later.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you any other suggestions you want to make to the committee?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I would like to see the Navajos get a reservation down there where they are at. It looks to me like if they had a small reservation and they were put on that reservation it would be better for them and the white stockmen, too.

Senator FRAZIER. Would the Indians be willing to do that?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes; if they got the country where they are at now. They would not be willing to move from where they are at on to the reservation, but if they could be given the land where they are at, why, they would be willing to do that.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. How much do the holdings total for each band? Mr. ASHCROFT. I would say 10 or 12 townships for each band.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. There are different size bands there? Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir. Not less than that. Senator WHEELER. You say the white men would not have any objection to that?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I believe it would be better for the white men. There would be a few object, but the majority would sooner see the Navajo blocked up on the reservation.

Senator WHEELER. Rather than to have the odd section and the white men taking the Indians' grazing area and the Indian taking the white man's?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. You think it would be better for the Indians and better for the stockmen, as a whole?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir; I think it would be better.

Senator WHEELER. Who are the white stockmen that are grazing their sheep there? Can you give us their names?

Mr. ASHCROFT. There is the Crockett Bros., then there is Sylvester Maryville. I think he is in the building. He is one of the largest stockmen down there. Then there is the Hubbell Sheep Co. and the Prouty & Briece Sheep Co.

Senator WHEELER. Do they lease railroad land?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I believe the Briece Co. owns the odd sections in three townships there. Then the New Mexico-Arizona Land Co. owns, I believe, six townships down in that country.

Senator WHEELER. How could it be arranged so that they could exchange their lands there? You think that could be done?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I think most of those companies would be willing to exchange the odd-numbered sections for the even-numbered sections somewhere else and block the whole thing that way.

Senator WHEELER. You think they would be willing to work it out that way?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I believe most of them would.

Senator WHEELER. You think that that would solve the proposi tion, do you?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir. There may be a township or two that should be bought, but most of it could be blocked up that way.

Senator WHEELER. If that was done, could these Indians then have a higher grade of sheep?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Yes, sir; they could have a better grade of sheep. Senator WHEELER. Well, if they had a better grade of sheep they would not need as many sheep to make a living from?

Mr. ASHCROFT. Well, they do not have enough as it is. If they had a good grade, I do not believe they would have enough yet. Senator WHEELER. How many sheep will the average Indian family own down there?

Mr. ASHCROFT. I could not say. They will run from 30 to 40 head up to a thousand or 1,500.

Senator FRAZIER. Practically all families have some sheep?
Mr. ASHCROFT. Most all of them have some few sheep.

Senator FRAZIER. That is all.

(Witness excused.)

Senator FRAZIER. We will take a recess until 1 o'clock.

(At 12 o'clock noon a recess was taken until 1 o'clock p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The subcommittee met at 1 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of the recess, all parties present as heretofore noted.

S. F. STACHER was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. What is your name?

Mr. STACHER. S. F. Stacher.

Senator FRAZIER. What is your official position?

Mr. STACHER. I am superintendent of the Eastern Navajo Agency. Senator FRAZIER. That includes the local school here?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How much territory comprises your jurisdiction in this Eastern Navajo Agency?

Mr. STACHER. Part of the executive-order strip of the reservation and all of the public domain occupied by Indians. All of the reservation proper and south and west as far as Gallup and the Hog Back this side.

Senator FRAZIER. How long have you been here?

Mr. STACHER. Over 22 years.

Senator FRAZIER. At this place?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you come here at the beginning of the establishment of this agency?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How long has the school been established? Mr. STACHER. We started the school in 1912 with 25 children. Senator FRAZIER. During the time you have been here, what would you say as to the condition of the Navajo Indians of this district?

Mr. STACHER. As to land and range problems they never were worse than they are now. It is one of the most complex situations I know of.

Senator FRAZIER. Why?

Mr. STACHER. Because we have 7,500 Indians under this jurisdiction; nearly 7,000 are living or allotted upon the public domain. Senator WHEELER. How many Indians have you here?

Mr. STACHER. Seven thousand five hundred under this jurisdiction. Senator WHEELER. How many on the public domain?

Mr. STACHER. Nearly 7,000 on the public domain.

Senator FRAZIER. Are these 7,000 allotted?

Mr. STACHER. Three thousand six hundred of this number are allotted.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Could you show on one of these wall maps where they are?

Senator WHEELER. Wait a minute. Do these 3,600 represent heads of families out of the 7,000?

Mr. STACHER. No; I might say they began the allotment work on the public domain at the time the Executive-order extension was made, taking in part of this Navajo country. They made something like 2,500 allotments at that time, but in 1911 they disbanded the crews out here and they restored the surplus land to the public domain before the allotment work was completed.

Senator WHEELER. Why was that done?

Mr. STACHER. I do not know.

Senator FRAZIER. Are there more of the Indians that want allotments?

Mr. STACHER. At the present time we have 3,500 not allotted. Of this number, there are about 2,500 to 3,000 that are eligible for allotments under the general allotment act. All the others under the law can not be allotted for this reason: As I understand it, when parents make a selection of their allotments they must make their selection for the children at that time; but children born since that time can not be allotted until they are 21 years of age.

Senator WHEELER. How many acres have you within the reservation?

Mr. STACHER. On the reservation proper we have about 220,000 acres; on the Executive order strip.

Senator WHEELER. Two hundred and twenty thousand. What is the amount of acreage in your jurisdiction?

Mr. STACHER. The Indians are occupying and using one and onehalf million acres.

Senator WHEELER. What is the amount of acreage in your jurisdiction that can be consolidated through exchange?

Mr. STACHER. I figure that the maximum number of townships through exchange is not more than 12 townships; I mean in the jurisdiction proper. Now, there are four or five townships at Ramah that we can consolidate, but in this area here around Crownpoint there is not more than 12 townships we can consolidate without giving up some of our improvements and some of the rights that we have in certain townships that the Indians want to keep.

Senator WHEELER. What part of this acreage is in Indian ownership at the present time?

Mr. STACHER. About a half million acres is allotted. It is approximately that number.__I have the exact figures in that report.

Senator FRAZIER. You mean besides the 220,000 acres on the reservation?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Have you a copy of the act authorizing the exchanges in New Mexico?

Mr. STACHER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. And the regulations dealing with the exchanges. We would like to have it for the record.

(For copy of the regulations, see p. 9646.)

Mr. STACHER. This is a copy of the law under which the consolidation exchange is made, the first exchange that was put over. The law reads as follows:

The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized in his discretion, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by him, to accept reconveyances to the Government of privately owned and State school lands, and relinquishments of valid homestead entries or other filings, including Indian allotment selections, within any township of the public domain in San Juan, McKinley, and Valencia Counties, New Mexico, and to permit lieu selections by those surrendering their lights so that the holdings of any claimant within any township wherein such reconveyances or relinquishments are made may be consolidated and held in solid areas: Provided, That the title or claim of any person who refuses to reconvey to the Government shall not be hereby affected. (Act of March 3, 1921, 41 Stat. L. 1239.)