idea. I have reference to a boy or girl becoming of age about 14 or so years of age. Now, it is in view of those educational facilities that I claim the benefits we have derived from the care of the Government who has been of material help giving us these things and it is my desire at this time to have the school facilities enlarged and through that we may mutually be benefited.

It is my desire that the general welfare of the Hopi Indians, the whole entire tribe, should be looked after. I refer to this particular domain here. That business of this reservation should go hand in hand and thus only can we be really benefited mutually.

Senator FRAZIER. Would you like to see a doctor and nurse located here at Hotevilla?

The INTERPRETER. That would be beneficial, indeed. As I have admitted to you, I am not capable of presenting these things, but your suggestion is good. We should have a capable person to handle our general affairs because we Hopi people have been having some experience with Mrs. Simpson on the premises. She holds several positions on the ground, which is, in our judgment, not quite satisfactory.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, I understand the position of field matron has been discontinued.

Mr. MILLER. It is discontinued and a field nurse placed here.

Senator FRAZIER. You tell him the position of field matron has been discontinued and will be replaced by a field nurse. That will take place in the near future.

The INTERPRETER. That is all for the general statement. Now, I wish to make a remark that is rather personal, more or less. I want your frank judgment on it. Here is my friend, Mr. Hubbell, at my village. He has bought a house without informing me as to his intentions; that is, the owner. The place has become a nuisance around these places. I will leave that to your opinion as a question. This is all I wish to say that needs to be said at this

time.

Senator FRAZIER. Mr. Hubbell informs me he bought this some six or seven years ago, under permission of a former superintendent here, intending to use it for a store, a branch store, but it has not been used.

We thank you, chief.

(Witness excused.)

THOMAS TAKALA was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified, through an interpreter, as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?

The INTERPRETER. In Hotevilla.

Senator FRAZIER. How old are you?

The INTERPRETER. I have no idea. I never took a record of it. Senator FRAZIER. Have you ever been to school?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; I have been to school, but I never took a

record of my age.

Senator FRAZIER. How much did you go to school?

The INTERPRETER. About fourth grade.

Senator FRAZIER. Did you go to this school here?

The INTERPRETER. At Keams Canyon.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you got a statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. This is the father of the boy we referred to this morning as being mistreated and who died as the result of it. I wish to have a few words to say on that subject, if it is true my boy died because of ill handling on these premises. This, as far as they are concerned, of course, is a closed matter, but I refer to Mr. Duvall here. I said to him one time: Henceforth he should cease to permit anyone or himself to whip children on the premises, but Elizabeth said he did not carry out his promise.

Senator FRAZIER. Who is Elizabeth?

The INTERPRETER. This is Elizabeth Ruth.

Senator FRAZIER. What was said?

The INTERPRETER. That Elizabeth Ruth had said Mr. Duvall failed to carry out his promise not whipping the children on the premises or allowing his subordinates to do it.

Senator FRAZIER. How about that, Mr. Superintendent?

Mr. DUVALL. I never made any promise to him at any time like that. Furthermore, we have not whipped any children here in a long time. We never did whip very many.

The INTERPRETER. Elizabeth instructed me to bring this to Mr. Duvall's attention as reproof that she told me that she told me that they were encouraging it; almost coaxed them to whip the children. Now, this is the fact that Elizabeth herself told me.

Senator ASHURST. As a matter of fact, the Hopis never punish their children, do they?

The INTERPRETER. Generally they do not.

Senator ASHURST. They do not understand our methods, do they? The INTERPRETER. They have their own methods of punishment and correction.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, the superintendent here says they do not whip the children here and have not for a long time in that way. There has been no corporal punishment at all.

The INTERPRETER. I take the contrary side, because some children, including my own son, told me he had been whipped again. Senator FRAZIER. How long ago?

The INTERPRETER. A week or so ago.

Senator FRAZIER. What does he understand by whipping?

The INTERPRETER. I do not know exactly what form it was administered, but the boy said he was whipped, and my own child told me he was whipped.

Senator FRAZIER. Were there any marks on the child?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator ASHURST. Probably he means that he was corrected? The INTERPRETER. The Hopi word could imply placing a strapping upon or reprimand; that is true. So it might be that; but the primary meaning of the Hopi is to lay a strap upon or an instrument upon or against the flesh. That is the primary meaning of the word, and generally we use that word to denote whipping or flogging. So that is what I believe he has in mind, rather than the reprimand. That is distinguishable by some other clause.

Senator FRAZIER. I suggest if any of your children or any other children complain about any treatment that they receive from the

teachers here, the parents of that child come to the school and talk to the superintendent and teacher about it. Do you have an interpreter here; some one that can interpret, if they can not talk English?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. Do not the parents of the children, especially the mothers of the children, come here to school frequently for meetings or to do some work for the children?

The INTERPRETER. I do not know whether they do or not.
Senator FRAZIER. Does your wife come?

The INTERPRETER. No; she does not come.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, she ought to visit the school and see what they are doing here. You have to have cooperation, you know, between the parents and the teachers in order to get the best results. Anything further?

The INTERPRETER. Now, in bringing up the question of my son who died-the sting is still present with me.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, it is too bad, of course.

The INTERPRETER. I will remind you that the thing took place on these premises.

Senator FRAZIER. I want to ask the superintendent to make a brief statement in regard to that incident. That happened since you have been here?

Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Make a brief statement about it.

Mr. DUVALL. The occasion of this punishment that Thomas Takala speaks about was supposed to have happened on Wednesday morning. Senator FRAZIER. How long ago, approximately?

Mr. DUVALL. The fall of 1927; the latter part of November, I believe. This boy came to school on Thursday; he came to school on Friday, and in 99.99 per cent of the cases I see every child every day. We have a toothbrush drill out here at 8 every morning, and the children are there. After the toothbrush drill the teachers check the absentees to see if anybody is absent. I look the children over to see that they are clean. That is done almost every morning. This boy was here those two mornings, and those two days he came into the dining room to eat his lunch, so far as I know. He served on his detail.

I took a detail of boys at 3 o'clock-the Indian helper and myself took a detail of boys at that time. This boy was on our detail. We did not notice any difference in the boy. On Monday morning when we were checking up our absentees this boy was absent. I told the policeman to go down and see what was the matter with the boy. He came back and told me that the boy as sick. Mrs. Simpson was away on her annual leave at that time. So I went down and called Doctor Anderson at Oraibi and told him we had a boy out of school, I do not know what was the matter with him, but I would like for him to come up and see the boy. The doctor says, "I have only an old dilapidated Ford and I can not get up until the afternoon, but I will go up and see the boy, say, at 3 o'clock." I was down that afternoon at the shop with a few boys and Doctor Anderson drove up and says, "I have been to see that boy." He says, "So far as I can tell there is not very much the matter with him. He should perhaps

be in school to-morrow and not later than Wednesday." He says also: "I will come back up in the morning and see how he is." He says, "I gave him a physic and he may not feel like coming to school, but when this works off he ought to be in school Wednesday anyhow.' Well, on Monday night the boy died.

Senator FRAZIER. That is the same night the doctor was there? Mr. DUVALL. Yes, sir. The doctor did not get here until the afternoon on account of his car. The doctor made out a death certificate. I did not see the certificate. He sent it to the Canyon that the boy died from stoppage of the kidneys. Now, our Indian policemen told me after it was all over, after the boy was dead, without any solicitation whatever, that the boy could not micturate. I will go back to the first of this a little bit. I should have told this at the first.

After this boy died Otto came up here to see me. I had been working hard that day and I was carrying a crying baby at the time and I got a little bit offended at Otto and thought perhaps he was meddling where he should not. Otto asked me if the boy was spanked, and I told told him I thought he was, but as soon as Otto went away I went to see Miss Ring and asked her if he had been spanked and she said she had slapped him on the hands, that she was adjusting a curtain and this boy took a stick and put it between her legs or made some vulgar showing.

Senator FRAZIER. How old was the boy?

Mr. DUVALL. He must have been 11 or 12. Does he know how old? The INTERPRETER. Just about that.

Mr. DUVALL. Miss Ring said she had not punished the boy—that is, whipped him, but spanked him on the hand. There was another boy who did the same thing that this boy did. She punished them just the same, she said. That is all she did about that.

As to his charge of whipping children here, so far as I know there has been very little punishment, not as much as should have been in the last four or five years here. I have two children of my own, and I do not think they go a week without a spanking. We have a 100 other children here. It is a hard proposition. Sometimes you feel like spanking them when you do not do it. We have not had any spanking here for a long time. Several years ago I wrote a letter to the office at Mr. Miller's suggestion telling them we had no corporal punishment here and had not for years, so fas as I knew. This thing of beating the children up is not true. No child is beat up here or a club held over them; it is not true.

I want to give another instance: In the fall of the year when school starts we have a considerable number of small children 4 or 5 years old wanting to come to school. We tell them we can not take them in until they are 6 years old. We have taken two or three children 5 years old. Last fall when school started a little girl 5 years old came in here and wanted to go to school. I said to Miss Bailey, I would not drive her home, just let her stay here. Perhaps in four or five days or a week the novelty will wear off and she will go home. Let her drop out of her own accord. That little girl has come to school every day. We have not insisted. We really wanted her to drop out because we have more than we can care for. She is still here, and any of you can see her if you want to. She is over there in Miss Bailey's classroom.

Senator FRAZIER. Is this Miss Ring here?

Mr. DUVALL. No; she is a teacher at Leupp; she was transferred the next year from here at her own request to somewhere in New Mexico; I do not remember the exact place. From there she was transferred to Leupp.

Senator FRAZIER. Was there any statement from the doctor at the time to show there was a bruise on this boy's back?

Mr. DUVALL. He said he looked the boy over; that the boy had no clothing on. He told him to come over to him and he got up and came over to him and the doctor felt of his pulse and that so far as he could tell there was no sign of any punishment on him anywhere. There were no bruises or anything he could see, or anything the matter with him. I knew the doctor was on his way but I did not know that he had gone to see the boy. He told me this before I knew he had been over there.

Senator FRAZIER. We are very sorry that your boy died. Of course, the committee knows nothing about the circumstances as to what happened. I visited this school four years ago and saw pupils at work here and was very much impressed with the good work that Mr. Duvall was doing at that time. The fact he has been here so long in this school and the children seem to like the school, it seems to me, speaks very highly for him. I am sure he would not knowingly allow any child here to be hurt or in any way abused in this school.

(Witness excused.)

MIKE PU-HU-YES-VA was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified, through an interpreter, as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?

The INTERPRETER. At the village.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you have a statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. Why, it is concerning Mrs. Simpson, the field matron here. These women folks have been coming to the wash house under her direction. She used to give us laundry soap and such things as that, but at times it runs out and she buys her own laundry soap at her own expense and she sells it to the women folks at a nickel apiece.

Senator FRAZIER. Is that not all right? Soap costs money, of course. Do your women folks like to come over here to the laundry and do washing?

The INTERPRETER. Well, our women folks took advantage of it, and they like to wash at the laundry, but she begins to charge them for these things, and we found she was turning that property over to the people free working on the premises, allowing them to use that soap free, and that brought up some friction among the people.

Senator FRAZIER. It is a good thing to have all the soap you can use. A matter of that kind can be talked over with the superintendent and explained. I do not know what the regulations are in regard to charging for soap, but somebody, of course, had to buy the soap. Any other statement you want to make?

The INTERPRETER. Now, some four years ago I had serious trouble with my eyes, and Mrs. Simpson asked him to come over to her premises for treatment every day. Now, it is a fact when your eyes