SURVEY OF INDIAN CONDITIONS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES SUNDAY, MAY 17, 1931 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE OF COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS, Ganado, Ariz. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at Ganado, Ariz., Hon. Lynn J. Frazier (chairman), presiding. Present: Senators Frazier (chairman), and Wheeler. Also present: Senator Ashurst, ex-officio member of the subcommittee; Hon. J. Henry Scattergood, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs; A. A. Grorud, special assistant to the subcommittee; Nelson A. Mason, clerk; and F. S. Milberg official reporter. Senator FRAZIER. The hearing will came to order. This hearing is a continuation of the hearings we have held around through different States where Indians are living. This subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate is holding these hearings. Our wish is to find out the exact conditions of the Indians, what your problems are, and especially looking toward recommendations for legislation that may better your condition. We want to have the hearing as brief as possible this afternoon so we may have an opportunity to see your exhibits that we understand are waiting for us. JOHN CURLEY was called as a witness, and having been previously sworn in these hearings, testified as follows: Senator FRAZIER. You have a further statement you want to make to the committee? Mr. CURLEY. Yes. Senator FRAZIER. Proceed. Mr. CURLEY. I would like to introduce the thought that we may borrow money through the Government. Just at this time our sheep is very cheap. We depend upon our sheep. We do not have much left by the time we try to pay our debts. The liability is that the sheep will come up high again and then we lose; then we have to buy sheep for more money and we thought of this idea of your helping us to thresh this problem out to see if these things can not be put through. We like to borrow money and not pay the money back inside of three years and on up, not sooner than that. We have been arguing this among the Navajos. It is a big subject just at this time. We thought of a possibility of that kind. You know far better than we do about it and if you have any suggestions or any way you can help to put that through toward helping us we will appreciate it. We have already made the written paper out 26465-32-PT 18- -26 9295 and mailed it to you. I had a copy, but it is some place else, but the thought is right there. You will find the paper in Washington, D. C., when you go back. (Witness excused.) ALBERT SANDOVAL was called as a witness and, having been previously sworn in these hearings, testified as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Have you a further statement to make to the committee? Mr. SANDOVAL. One request I wish to make to the committee, and it is this: Is the commissioner, Mr. Hagerman, to be removed? We request that he be for this reason: All the time he has been our commissioner there has not been no results shown through his work, and we think it is about time somebody be put in his place. That is all the request I wish to make to the committee. (Witness excused.) HASTEIN SIHI BEYE was called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified, through an interpreter, as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Do you have a statement you want to make to the committee? The INTERPRETER. He wants to say something that he knows about very thoroughly, something he wants to bring before the committee. Senator FRAZIER. All right. The INTERPRETER. He says it is this: This country which they are living on it is their own country and has been for years and years, he says. On this land some years back they struck oil on this land and from this oil they have been getting some money. To their knowledge some of this money has been placed here and there. He says, of course, I suppose Mr. Hagerman knows all about it, but he says that the Indians here do not know about that. He says he supposes Mr. Hagerman knows where this money has been placed. Another thing, he says, they have coal which is in their own country. They want to take it. They want to mine that and they want to haul it, instead of having the white men mine it and haul it, because the Indian think all the time every white man has money. He says you may look upon him as being an old man, but, of course, he is not speaking for himself. He is speaking for the younger generation. He says he wishes to thank you. He has wished all these years to see you. He is very glad of an opportunity where he could talk to you, face to face, he says. That is all. (Witness excused.) Senator FRAZIER. What oil has been struck on the reservation? Mr. HUNTER. No oil has been struck in this jurisdiction, but we have several wells on the northern Navajo jurisdiction, and the revenue derived from there goes into the tribal fund. Senator FRAZIER. The whole Navajo tribal fund? Mr. HUNTER. Yes; they share alike in it. Senator FRAZIER. What about this coal mine? Mr. HUNTER. This coal is the same proposition. This is the same natter which was discussed at Fort Defiance yesterday. It happened this mine is located in this old gentleman's district and the mine has been opened and operated by the mission people, and according to what the young man said that particular property was deeded to the mission people. I was not aware of that. It was just an emergency operation, so far as we were concerned, because we planned on getting the coal from Fort Defiance and if we had not gotten it in the way we did it would have cost $20. We could get it delivered from this mine at $10.50 per ton and, at the same time, meet an emergency, and in order to meet the emergency why we got it from that mine. Senator FRAZIER. How long does this coal lease run? Mr. HUNTER. I am not informed about that. It is not leased, as a matter of fact. You see this mine is within the extension of the reservation. Senator WHEELER. Not on the reservation proper? Mr. HUNTER. It is within the Executive order part of the reservation. Senator WHEELER. If it is the coal goes with it. Mr. GRORUD. What particular mission acquired title? Mr. HUNTER. It has been operated by the Presbyterian mission. If the mission has title to it at all I am not aware of it. The young Navajo that spoke yesterday said they did, but that is the first information I had upon that. I shall surely look it up when I return to Fort Defiance. Senator FRAZIER. Do you know about this coal mine, how it is leased, or how the mission holds it? Mr. HUBBELL. I understood that the bureau has allowed the mission to mine the coal anywhere it wishes on the reservation on account of educating the Navajo children. The mission puts in outsiders to mine this coal to the best possible advantage. Senator FRAZIER. Then they have the right to sell it? Mr. HUBBELL. No, they have no right to sell it; just use it for their own use. They have a hospital up there and a large school. Senator WHEELER. As I understand it, the superintendent bought the coal from the mine, did he not? Mr. HUNTER. I contracted with the miner to deliver it at Chin Lee. Senator WHEELER. Well, they would not have any right to do that. Senator FRAZIER. Do you happen to know about this coal lease? Mr. SCATTERGOOD. No, I never heard of it before. We will have it looked up. Mr. HUNTER. This particular situation will clear up by July 1. ELMER FOUTZ was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Your name for the record? Mr. FOUTZ. Elmer Foutz. Senator FRAZIER. You have something to do with this coal lease here? Mr. FOUTZ. Nothing to do with the coal lease; I do not think there is any lease. Senator FRAZIER. What is the situation? Mr. FOUTZ. Well, it is just this, I think they have a right to mine the coal that is used for their school here. It is a school for the Indians. I have had a contract for five or six years hauling their coal and mining it. Senator FRAZIER. Mining and hauling it? Mr. FoUTZ. Yes, sir. Senator FRAZIER. How many miners? Mr. FOUTZ. It has been mostly Indians. Senator FRAZIER. How many miners do you employ? Mr. FoUTZ. One white man. The rest of it has been Indian labor. Senator FRAZIER. How many do you employ? Mr. FOUTZ. About four. Senator FRAZIER. You also contract with others, do you? Mr. FOUTZ. No, sir. Senator FRAZIER. Well, the superintendent of the agency said they got some coal from you? Mr. FoUTZ. That is from the same locality; my brother contracted that. Senator FRAZIER. You mine it and haul it? Mr. FOUTZ. Yes, sir. Senator WHEELER. How much do you charge for mining it and hauling it? Mr. FOUTZ. We get $7 a ton up here. Senator WHEELER. What right has your brother to mine coal here? Mr. FOUTZ. Just through the superintendent, I guess. Senator WHEELER. You have not any lease? Mr. FoUTZ. Not that I know of. The mission may have one, but I have not. Senator ASHURST. Are you one of the Foutz boys raised at Tuba? Mr. Fourz. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. I know your family. They are a very high grade people. I am opposed to any white man taking gas or oil or coal belonging to the Indians. All these resources-the land, timber, game, oil, and coal on the reservation-belong to the Indians. Senator FRAZIER. The Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Scattergood, is going to look up the situation when he gets back to Washington in regard to the coal, and a report will be made to the superintendent, and they can find out from him. (Witness excused.) BILLIE PETE was called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified, through an interpreter, as follows: Senator FRAZIER. You have a statement you want to make? The INTERPRETER. He says he wishes to make a comment upon what was said before in regard to Mr. Hagerman. He has been a delegate to the tribal council for three years. In that time he has not become acquainted with Mr. Hagerman at all because Mr. Hagerman has never been out in this country to talk with him. He says the reason he made the statement is that in the past from what he hears Mr. Hagerman has some records in the past which he does not like. It may be true and it may not be true, but he says from what he heard, for this reason, he kinds of believes that. He wanted to bring up some other things which really should not be brought up here. It should be brought up at his own home. Mr. HUNTER. This man is from Keams Canyon. The INTERPRETER. He says there are a few other things he wants to mention. You have already heard about them. The Indians want school; they want water because they need it; and they want hospitals because they need it. He says that is all he wishes to say here, but to-morrow he wishes to bring this other thing up. Senator FRAZIER. Are you a member of the Indian chapter or livestock association? The INTERPERETER. He says that over in the Keams Canyon jurisdiction they do not have those organizations. Senator FRAZIER. They do not have one there? The INTERPRETER. He made a request of Mr. Miller, but he said you got to wait four years. (Witness excused.) LITTLE SILVERSMITH was recalled as a witness and, having been previously sworn in these hearings, testified, through an interpreter, as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Do you want to make a further statement? Senator FRAZIER. Make your statement. The INTERPRETER. He said yesterday he brought up the land question and last night he was thinking over this thing and he forgot to mention one thing. When you make exchanges for them he does not want to get land that they can not make a living on; exchange and those kinds of lands. Senator FRAZIER. He wants some good land? The INTERPRETER. Yes; where there is water. Senator FRAZIER. If they do not have land with water, it is not much good here, is it? The INTERPRETER. He says it takes lots of work and lots of money to get water on land where there is not any and he says where they have water before, of course, those lands are taken up. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. You tell him when we make the exchange to consolidate their lands we have to take the land as it is. Then if it lacks water we will try to develop that water. The INTERPRETER. Yes; he says he is glad to hear that. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. We can not help them until we get the land. When they get the land then we will help the Indians. The INTERPRETER. He said that they lived on this land; why isn't it theirs? (Witness excused.) HOWARD GORMAN was called as a witness and, having been previously sworn in these hearings, testified as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Do you want to make a further statement? Senator FRAZIER. All right; go ahead. Mr. GORMAN. I want to put a question before this Senate committee which the Navajos are very anxious to know about. About · four years ago we held a council meeting over at Crownpoint. At this council meeting the council without consent of the people determined upon a plan whereby they may set aside about 25 per cent of the oil royalties. This money was to be used and set aside for the purpose of purchasing land that Little Silversmith has been talking about a while ago. Since then we have not received an accurate report on this deposit that they have been making. |