Senator FRAZIER. A small reservoir?

Mr. SANDOVAL. A small reservoir.
Senator FRAZIER. A charco?

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. They call them tanks here. They call them charcos on the Papago Reservation.

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes. If they have anything like that, they could do some good over here at these isolated places where they can not put in windmills and where they can not develop anymore springs. Of course, they have gone over the springs and they can not make anymore springs.

Senator FRAZIER. The springs are pretty well developed, are they? Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Are there any of these tanks any place, or reservoirs?

Mr. SANDOVAL. No, not that I know of; on the Southern Navajo Reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. Have not any of them been tried out?

Mr. NEUFFER. We have been making a spring development on the Southern Navajo Reservation in order to get quicker results. Senator FRAZIER. What do you mean?

Mr. NEUFFER. Where we find a spring we will develop it, build a trough and make it so that the stock can get water. If there is a seep, we dig it out. Sometimes the stock can not make use of them at first but by development we can get enough water for stock and domestic purposes.

Senator FRAZIER. Have not any artificial reservoirs been scraped out or tried out the same as on the Papago Reservation?

Mr. NEUFFER. We have quite a number of them, Senator; I would say 25 or 30 scattered over the reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. Just small ones?

Mr. NEUFFER. They vary in size, of course. We need many more. The irrigation department has helped out some on that and the Indians have dug lots of them themselves and we are going along as fast as we can.

Senator FRAZIER. Are they quite satisfactory?

Mr. NEUFFER. Some of them are. Of course, the reservoir must be specially constructed down here because the evaporation is great. Senator WHEELER. You have a tractor down here, have you not? Can you do more work with what you have out here in reference to more wells?

Mr. HUNTER. Our tractors are for road work. We can not do all the road work that is necessary really, with the equipment that we have. We would like very much to have tractors for this other work as the funds become available. It is a great advantage.

Mr. NEUFFER. I might say we have two tractors that are working on the Navajo Reservation but none on this particular reservation, one in the eastern and one in the western Navajo.

Senator FRAZIER. Doing what kind of work?

Mr. NEUFFER. Building reservoirs. The reason for having tractor crews on those reservations is because in certain sections that is all we can do. That is the only type of water development we can make. One type will fit one section and another type another sec

tion. In our program for the northern Navajo we figured on 71 additional reservoirs.

Senator FRAZIER. What is your program for the Southern Navajo? Mr. NEUFFER. One hundred and thirty-one reservoirs. Pardon me. I was looking at the wrong column.

Senator FRAZIER. One hundred and thirty-one. How many have you got now?

Mr. NEUFFER. We have not built any ourselves. Those that are here the Indians have built.

Senator FRAZIER. You have 131 to go?

Mr. NEUFFER. One hundred and thirty-one to go. The total Navajo Reservation we estimate there should be 551.

Senator FRAZIER. If you do not get started on the 551, pretty soon they will not be needed.

Mr. NEUFFER. It takes money. We have built 136 reservoirs on the Southern Navajo. We have made 136 developments on the Southern Navajo. I want to correct my statement about the number of reservoirs built. It should be 48. In the Southern Navajo jurisdiction we have made 136 water developments. It needs an additional 339.

Senator FRAZIER. Does that include these wells some one talked about here that did not have any water after they got them completed? Mr. NEUFFER. In our program we will have to go over nearly every well on the reservation and recast many of them. In some cases we will have completely new developments. Many of these wells were not drilled properly, as Mr. Womack stated awhile ago. They were not drilled deep enough. In years gone by there was apparently very little supervision of that work. In some cases wells were drilled and windmills put up, and later when they went out to find the water there was not any water there at all. I have not heard anything of that kind happen in late years. On account of the unsatisfactory condition of the drilled well it was abandoned for the development of springs and the building of reservoirs.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you any further statement, Mr. Sandoval? Mr. SANDOVAL. As to irrigation, I think there is one or two places that a diversion dam could be put in, especially at one place called Rock Point.

Senator FRAZIER. A diversion dam?

Mr. SANDOVAL. If a diversion dam was put in, it would take care of a stretch of land 12 miles long and in places 4 miles wide. Senator FRAZIER. Is that on your program?

for next year. We

Mr. NEUFFER. We have not that in our program have a fund set aside to investigate such projects, however. Senator FRAZIER. Anything else?

Mr. SANDOVAL. So much for the water, but I want to say one or two things on the land question that was brought up. It appears to me that there is some misunderstanding about the Indians wanting more land. What we really mean is that the Indians that are occupying these lands off the reservation they want to keep what they got, the way things stand. Of course, they are living on these lands. We are told they do not belong to us; they are being leased; and we want to keep those.

Senator FRAZIER. Where is that?

Mr. SANDOVAL. That is off the reservation.

Senator ASHURST. Is it north of Holbrook?

Mr. SANDOVAL. Along the railroad here from Gallup down below. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. That applies not only on the south but on the east side.

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes. It is not that the Indians want something from the white people. What the Indians want is what they are living on and now have. I believe that is all.

Senator FRAZIER. Thank you.

Mr. NEUFFER. What is that project you mentioned a while ago? I did not get the name.

Mr. SANDOVAL. Rock Point.

Mr. NEUFFER. That is out north of Chin Lee?

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes; that is down the valley from Chin Lee.

Mr. NEUFFER. You said that there is a stretch of country 12 miles long and 4 miles

Mr. SANDOVAL. No; 4 miles wide.

Mr. HUNTER. Tell them what the Indians have done there in respect to building a dam.

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes. This spring with the help of the agency they put in a dirt dam there. It is about 8 feet high, and they figured when the snow water comes down the wash they could get that water out and irrigate some of the land there, flood some of the land so they can put in their crop, but it did not work. It gave way. Senator ASHURST. Was there a core to the dam?

Mr. SANDOVAL. No.

Senator ASHURST. Do you think there should be a diversion dam there?

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes; because there is a suitable place down in the wash where it can be done.

Senator ASHURST. Would this diversion dam control the waters out on your land?

Mr. SANDOVAL. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Do you have any idea what that would cost?
Mr. SANDOVAL. No, sir.

Senator ASHURST. How wide and how long would the dam be?
Mr. SANDOVAL. I think about several hundred feet across.
Senator FRAZIER. All right. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

.

PETER PRICE was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Clyde Lizer (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?

The INTERPRETER. I live over here about a mile.

Senator FRAZIER. How many sheep have you got?

The INTERPRETER. About 200.

Senator FRAZIER. How many goats among the 200 sheep?

The INTERPRETER. More goats than sheep.

Senator WHEELER. Why do you not get rid of some of those goats and have more sheep?

The INTERPRETER. He says the goats are stronger than the sheep. Senator WHEELER. You tell him he can make more money on sheep than on goats.

26465-32-PT 18- -23

The INTERPRETER. That might be true; but we know that we can get a lot of use out of the goats, just as much as the sheep. That is, by using the meat, the hides, and the milk.

Senator FRAZIER. Has he got any Angora goats?

The INTERPRETER. Well, there are more Angora goats than scrub goats.

Senator FRAZIER. He can sell the Angora mohair?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he does sell it. They sold some, but they do not get good prices for that.

Senator WHEELER. Everything is low in price. I understand you want to make a statement in regard to road construction here? The INTERPRETER. That is right.

Senator FRAZIER. Very well, make your statement.

The INTERPRETER. He says, taking this road between here and Gallup, it has been improved and he says coming over there you have noticed the condition it is in. While coming over it you did not even rock in your car. It is that way from Gallup out as far as Fort Defiance. But from now on if you take the road between here and Chin Lee and the road toward Lukachukai, if you go out on that road, if you happen to go on that road, you are from one end of the car to the other all the day from here to Chin Lee. Going toward Ganado you might have a smooth ride half way, but the rest of the way you will have the same kind of ride you would to Chin Lee.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him to look at that man over there at the end of the table.

The INTERPRETER. He says he seen him once last year but he don't recall.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him that is the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs and that we are going to take him over that road to-morrow and then he will see to it that you get a new road.

The INTERPRETER. He says he will sure find out.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead with your statement.

The INTERPRETER. He said that the road leads out through the canyon here to the northwest and that takes you to the Chin Lee school. From there on there are points such as Rough Rock and other places that are in urgent need of a good road through there. He says he wishes that the Government officials that come through here from Washington go through here to the farthest points on the reservation and come back here on the same day without having any trouble. My hope is if we have good roads we could introduce civilization to the Navajos to the farthest points and also introduce the Navajos to civilization. So the Navajos as a tribe we all hope for good roads, and he ask the rest of the people if that was so, and they all said yes. He says, we are asking for more schools in order to enforce education among our younger people. We have to have roads to get to these isolated places. He says the most urgent need is good roads. He says he don't see you very often, just took a glance at you over at Ship Rock yesterday and to-day again. He says the reason why they are putting their plans before you is you don't come often out here. He says he hopes that you have heard all of their needs and troubles and they wish to thank every one of you. He says that is the way he feels about it.

Senator FRAZIER. We thank you. That is a good statement. The INTERPRETER. He says that is about all about roads. He say he don't intend to ask for all the money that you have in Washington for the purpose of building those roads, but he says he lay the plans before you and our superintendent there knows just about how much money it will take to improve our roads on the reservation. So that is that much about the roads.

He says there is one more thing he wishes to bring out. That is about the Indian treaties on the reservation. He says they do not have any trouble or any quarrels over it, but then he just thought he would mention it. He says about this time of the year when they get ready to sell their wool the Indians usually get notice that the prices are going to come down to-morrow noon or the next two days. In other words, why they will force the Indians to sell their wool as soon as possible for the price that exists then.

Senator WHEELER. Ask him if his superintendent or the officials does not help the Indians with the sale of their wool and their lambs?

The INTERPRETER. He says they do not lay the plans before them. Senator WHEELER. You tell him I said the superintendent and these officials here of the Government should lay the plans before the Indians and help them in every way possible in getting the best of prices for their lambs and the best price for their wool that they can get.

The INTERPRETER. He says that is true, but he is not through with his statement yet. He says we work hard this time of the year during the lambing season and the time of selling lambs in the fall the same thing comes up again as stated before. He says these Navajo women work hard in weaving these Navajo rugs. He says it is hard work to weave a blanket. That is, for the Navajo women. He says when they get through with a blanket why after they work on it for a month or so, it takes them a whole month to weave a good blanket. They take the blanket to the store. Of course, they do not get the cash for it. He says all they do is they will tear off a piece of paper and write the amount they have coming to them and go in the back room and smoke some more.

Senator FRAZIER. That is what the trader does?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How about that, Mr. Superintendent?

Mr. HUNTER. As I stated awhile ago, our traders will give them a cash price. Of course, there may be violations of that, but that is certainly the general rule. It is probable that during these hard times when it is almost impossible to get rid of the blankets that they offer them a better price in trade. I think that condition prevails.

Senator WHEELER. Well, there is a regulation, is there not, with reference to paying them cash?

Mr. HUNTER. There is; yes, sir. They will pay them cash.
Senator WHEELER. If the Indians want the cash for it?

Mr. HUNTER. If they make the demand for cash, they can get cash. If they do not get the cash, I think they generally understand they are at liberty to take it up with me and I will attend to it.