Senator FRAZIER. You think the marshal is prejudiced?
Mr. HOUSE. At the same time he says they are drunk.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you think the marshall is prejudiced against the Indians?

Mr. HOUSE. I do not understand you.

Senator FRAZIER. I mean, does he arrest Indians where he would not arrest the white people?

Mr. HOUSE. Yes, sir; he don't arrest white people.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. You do not think the city marshal knows a sober man when he sees one?

Senator FRAZIER. You admit some of the Indian boys drink here, do you not? Some of them drink?

Mr. HOUSE. Yes; some of them drink.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement you want to make?

Senator WHEELER. Where did he hit you?

Mr. HOUSE. This is where Rube Neill hit me.

Senator WHEELER. He hit you over the head?

Mr. HOUSE. Yes, sir; he hit me with a club four or five times. Senator WHEELER. When?

Mr. HOUSE. About seven years ago.

Senator WHEELER. Is that the way you beat up on these Indians, with a club?

Mr. NEILL. No, sir; I did it with a .41 six shooter and I did it in protection of my life.

Senator WHEELER. I find a lot of officers beating up people without much excuse.

Mr. NEILL. I am not denying I hit him, Senator. If I am in the wrong I can be punished and I am willing to submit to a trial. That is as far as I can tell you. Now, I am just speaking in defense of myself and I do not want to be impertinent, but I was here to do my duty and I have not fallen short of it very far. As far as fining these Indians is concerned, the judge probably has something to do with that. I do not assess the fines; I merely make the arrests.

Senator WHEELER. You give testimony, do you not? Before the police court?

Mr. NEILL. Yes, sir. I very often do.

Senator FRAZIER. The police court accepts your testimony in preference to that of the accused?

Mr. NEILL. Quite often.

Senator WHEELER. Regardless of what the Indians testify to? Mr. NEILL. No.

Senator WHEELER. The Indians have to remember this: If they go out and get drunk and get into police court, if they drink moonshine and other intoxicants, there is not anything that the Government of the United States can do to prevent these police courts and these marshals and other peace officers from arresting and fining you, even though I think they should not do it in some cases. It is something that we can not do anything about.

Mr. BLACKHOOP. May I say this: It is very hard for these Indians to explain themselves and when they try to explain themselves to the policeman he gets mad and knocks them out. That is what he did to him. The only thing I am asking at this time-I have noth

ing against Mr. Neill. I think he is a good man and I hope he thinks I am a good man.

Mr. NEILL. I do.

Mr. BLACKHOOP. I ask the city marshal if he has anything against me—I have not anything against him-let us bury our hatchets and we will start over again. When an Indian is drinking I have a right to report to him. If he does anything, I have a right to report to him because he is an officer, but I ask Mr. Neill to be a gentleman when I talk to him or anybody else when I talk to them, and if I ask him to give a square deal to the Indians as well as the whites, I would like him to be a gentleman, but he puts more severe punishment on Indians and he does not put that severe punishment on the white man, and I know it and I can testify to that effect.

Senator WHEELER. Unfortunately that is true in a great many places, but it is something over which Congress has no control. We can not make gentlemen out of men who do not want to be gentle

men.

Senator ASHURST. I have known Mr. Neill for over 45 years. He came from one of our best families, a pioneer family. He and I have had differences in bygone days, but, so far as I know, he has lived a good life in Winslow. He is trusted by the people here and whilst it may be he has done this thing, I would be very much surprised to find it to be true because he is regarded by the people here as a capable officer.

Mr. NEILL. I would like to say now, Senator Wheeler, if you please, you have taken one side of the matter. I was nearlySenator WHEELER. I have not taken any side of it.

Mr. NEILL. Of course, I have nothing but my reputation. I have got very little. I have been an officer in the State of Arizona for 32 years. In that time if I had been as radically wrong as I have been accused up here, very likely the public would have found it out and I would be through. I have served in several counties. I have had the pleasure of working in one county for almost 15 years and I believe I could go back there and work again.

Senator WHEELER. I have just expressed my own opinion. I think there is mighty little excuse for an officer of the law ordinarily to use his gun to beat up an Indian or a white man either and to beat them over their heads with a gun. I do not think an officer has any right under ordinary circumstances to use his gun, and, when I was prosecuting attorney, and the Indian agents beat the Indians over the head, under those circumstances I did not permit him to work in my jurisdiction. When that was reported to me, and if I found an Indian agent or an Indian officer who was enforcing the law and who took his gun and beat an Indian over the head, I merely asked that that man be no longer permitted to work in the jurisdiction of Montana, because my people do not want that sort of thing to happen.

Mr. NEILL. May I ask you a question?

Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Mr. NEILL. If you were an officer and came up on a man attempting to rob a building and started to put him under arrest, resulting in a fight for your life or the other man's life and the man is about the same strength or of superior strength to you, or probably a

little stronger, what would be your attitude? Would you defend yourself or would you let him kill you?

Senator WHEELER. I would not let him kill me. I would defend myself.

Mr. NEILL. Well, I did just that.

Senator WHEELER. I say to you that these officers of the law, whether they are in the Government service or whether they are police officers or sheriffs, are entirely too free with the use of their guns, in my judgment.

Mr. NEILL. That is true in a good many places, still I deny the allegation.

Senator WHEELER. I do not know anything about this particular instance, but I do not like the idea of these Indians being beaten over the head with a gun.

Senator FRAZIER. Of course, we want these Indians to be good, lawabiding citizens, and we want the city or county officials to give them a square deal, certainly, but we have no authority in cases of this kind.

Mr. BLACK HOOP. The language he used a little while ago shows that he is not the man of a character that should hold the job.

Senator WHEELER. You will have to talk to the people of the city here and not to us.

Mr. BLACKHOOP. I am merely for the right of the Indians.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you want to make any other statement?

Mr. HOUSE. This is not the only place he has hit an Indian over the head. He has done it in Flagstaff, too. He killed a man up there at Flagstaff.

Senator FRAZIER. Who killed a man there?

Mr. HOUSE. Mr. Neill.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, he is still an officer. We can not help that That is up to the people here.

Anything else?

Mr. HOUSE. That is all.

(Witness excused.)

MARK YASTABY was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator WHEELER. Do you pay taxes?

Mr. YASTABY. I have for the last 14 years.

Senator WHEELER. You have been paying taxes for the last 14 years?

Mr. YASTABY. Yes, sir; school and poll taxes.

Senator WHEELER. How much taxes do you pay in all?

Mr. YASTABY. Well, around $4.50.

Senator WHEELER. Around $4.50 a year?

Mr. YASTABY. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Do you pay taxes on any personal property?

Mr. YASTABY. No, sir; only a car.

Senator WHEELER. How is that?

Mr. YASTABY. Only a car.

Senator WHEELER. You pay taxes on that?

Mr. YASTABY. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Do many of the Indians own their own homes

and pay taxes on them?

Mr. YASTABY. There are a few of them that own their own homes and they are paying taxes.

Senator WHEELER. What you want to know is why, if they pay taxes on their homes, the Government pays a tuition to the public schools. Is that it?

Mr. YASTABY. Yes, sir. Here is my main point, what I want to find out: You see most of the boys are employed at the Santa Fe Railroad, which I am not. I am working here in town, and they pay school taxes and they deduct it just like the gentleman here told you a while ago.

Senator WHEELER. I think that is a road tax, not a school tax? Mr. YASTABY. School and road tax both. Their children are going to school here.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you some children going to school?

Mr. YASTABY. No; I have not. I have one, but he is going to school in New Mexico on the reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. You realize that the $4.50 tax paid would_not begin to pay for the cost of education of the Indian children here in the public schools, do you not?

Mr. YASTABY. No.

Senator WHEELER. You see, what the Government does is this: So that there will not be any prejudice against the Indians going to school and so they will have an opportunity and the advantages of the public schools in this city and in this county the Government has made it a rule that they will help, in that they will pay tuition for these children. It is for the benefit of these Indians and to give the Indians an opportunity to send their children to school.

Mr. YASTABY. Well, that is what I wanted to find out. I asked the tax collector yesterday about it and he did not know. He did not know how it came about. That is the main thing I was interested in. So far as that is concerned it does not make any difference to me. I ought to pay them; I would rather have them educated in the public schools. They give them a right kind of an education. Senator WHEELER. They give them a good schooling in this city? Mr. YASTABY. Yes; from what I have understood and seen they do. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do any Indians object to the Government helping the public schools that allow the Indians to be educated in them? Mr. YASTABY. No, sir; I do not think so.

Senator FRAZIER. It is customary where the Indian children attend the public schools for the Government to pay a small tuition each month?

Mr. YASTABY. I did not understand that and that is the thing I asked the tax collector about yesterday.

Senator WHEELER. I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has felt it would make a better feeling among the Indians and the white children and make it better for the Indian children if they helped to pay something for the schooling of the Indian children that are going to public school.

Mr. YASTABY. It has been talked among the boys here and there and they were going to bring this up but it looked like they were going to dismiss it, so I took it on my own hands to do it myself. Senator FRAZIER. Thank you.

(Witness excused.)

ELY BEARDSLEY was thereupon called as a witness and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. State your name to the committee.

Mr. BEARDSLEY. Ely Beardsley.

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live, Mr. Beardsley?
Mr. BEARDSLEY. I live here in Winslow.

Senator FRAZIER. Are you working here?

Mr. BEARDSLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What doing?

Mr. BEARDSLEY. Working in the roundhouse.

Senator FRAZIER. How long have you worked here?
Mr. BEARDSLEY. I have worked here eight years.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you have a statement you want to make to the committee?

Mr. BEARDSLEY. Not a statement; but there has been so much talk about this taxes, and I think the majority of the boys do not quite understand the exact reason why this money has been appropriated. Of course, we all know that as long as we are away from the reservation we assume that we are on the same footing as any citizen of the United States and that we come under the laws of the State. I think it is the duty of every agent that has jurisdiction over the Indians to explain these things, so that the Indians could understand and not make themselves disagreeable in the communities where they reside. These things come up which goes to create more friction than to cause harmony. What we want is harmony in every community. We are a part of the community. We have got to live here and I think it is the duty of every Indian to see that he abides by the laws of the State, and I think he is quite a law-abiding citizen.

I think they are a law-abiding people as a whole. The city can testify as to that. I think they are people that are willing to get along in any community. We have a great desire to give our children the same advantages as the other people have. Of course, it is something that the Government is helping us with; they are helping our children by giving us this money. We know that the amount of taxes that we pay this year does not cover the actual expenses, the hire of the teachers, and everything that goes with it. Those are the things I think the bureau should see that the members of the different tribes are instructed along this line and made to understand these things. I think, as far as the city and the people are concerned, the people and the various Indian tribes get along very well. I have never heard of any complaint; that is, as long as we are within our limits, and law-abiding citizens, abiding by the laws of the city. Of course, some has testified as to the way we have been treated. I do not think that there is any one that would deliberately harm another person without some cause or some reason. These things, I believe, can be remedied, if we will take the stand to live within the laws.

Senator FRAZIER. Thank you for making the statement.

Senator WHEELER. I think if the Indians keep sober and do not get into trouble they will have no difficulty here.

(Witness excused.)