In than it lost by the granting of such lands to the railroads. At least. that was the theory under which these land grants were made. another part of the United States, where farms were established by clearing the land, it was no hardship upon those who obtained the lands in that way from the Federal Government when alternating sections of railroad lands were sold to other people. There was no interference between one farmer and another. That policy was established at a very early date and it was extended to the transcontinental railroads when we were most anxious to have rail communication between the East and the Pacific coast. Following that old policy there was granted to the old Atlantic & Pacific Railroad the grant to take effect on the final determination of its definite location every alternate section of land for 40 miles on each side of the track, and if for any reason the railroad could not obtain the lands within that distance, if there were there lands already patented that would fall within that section they might go an addiional distance of 10 miles either way in order to obtain their land. So we have a strip of country extending across all of New Mexico and all of northern Arizona where this grant attached at a very early date. Many of these alternate sections are still in railroad ownership; many of them have been sold to stockmen and settlers in the country. The situation, so far as the Santa Fe Railroad is concerned, which is the successor of the Atlantic & Pacific, is that in certain parts of northern Arizona they own considerable areas of land in this vicinity and farther east by a trade, as I understand it, for a certain mileage of railroad that the Santa Fe desired to acquire farther east from the St. Louis & San Francisco Railroad Co. That company was given land here in northern Arizona, also, so that the ownership is considerably mixed. The great evil in the situation as it stands to-day is this: That this alternate section system or checkerboard system, while it might fit in in a farming country, is utterly unsuited to an unfenced grazing country where the section lines are not marked, where it would be utterly impracticable from a cost point of view to fence the land, and if it were fenced without roads in between you could not pass from one section to another. You have a situation here where one part of the checkerboard belongs to either the railroad companies or to those who have purchased the lands from them and the other part is either public domain or Indian allotment and the use of the land is for grazing. Now the cattle or sheep have no knowledge of where these lands are. They simply wander from one section to another in search of food. The result is an absolute intolerable situation from a grazing point of view, and that is the highest use of the land. Those who paid good money for these lands when they bought them from the railroad companies seek to place the stock upon them in order to realize something on their investment and find within the checkerboard are Indian allotments. The Indians likewise, attempting to obtain a livelihood from the grasses that grow on these lands, find the same situation to exist. The net result has been within my own experience that where there has been an aggressive white man in the stock business in a certain area he has demanded his rights. He said: "I am a property owner; I have a right to use my lands, and I am going to use them, and if the Indians get in the way they will have to get out of the way." In other parts of the area you will find aggressive Indians and white men who are not so aggressive, and the Indians come in and takes the land and leaves the white stockman who owns the land or rents it from the railroad without income. That situation can not continue to exist. It is intolerable, and the only solution that I can see for it is either by purchase or by exchange and consolidation of these holdings, if the areas can be consolidated in blocks of land so that the Indians will own a definite area which is theirs and have all the grass on it, and then certain other definite areas within this checkerboard can be transferred to the white stockmen who can then successfully pursue the business in which they are engaged. It is that problem that has come up to me from this whole section of northern Arizona, particularly Coconino and Navajo Counties and Apache County east of here. Senator Bratton, of New Mexico, tells me he has the same kind and character of complaint in New Mexico where the checkerboard system extends farther on to the east. In addition to the two parties in interest-that is, the Indian and white man, who are trying to make a living from the stock_business-we find the interests of the counties in which the lands are located. If Congress appropriates money, or if tribal funds are used for the purchase of these railroad lands in order to consolidate them into Indian holdings, the title passes to the United States in trust for the Indians, and when title passes to the United States to any land it is no longer taxable by the State or the county wherein the land is located. These are not rich counties. The tax rate is high. It is a difficult and serious burden to maintain. The local government costs are upon the taxpayers residing in the county, and the effect upon them of large purchases of lands on the part of the Indians is to take off the tax roll property values and enhance the burden of taxation upon the white taxpayer. There is not only that phase of it, the actual increase in taxes that would result from the purchase of these lands for the benefit of the Indians, but there is this feature: The counties have bonded themselves for schools and for roads, and behind these bond issues stand certain land values which were listed at the time the bonds were sold. You are, therefore, taking out from the bond or bonds of the county or the school district, as the case may be, certain values upon which those who purchased the bonds relied at the time they made the purchase. That is a very disturbing element. It has been my thought that a policy should be adopted by Congress whereby exchanges of land might be made so that the checkerboard as it exists here in northern Arizona might be abolished and generally the lands in the northern part consolidated into Indian holdings and those to the south in private ownership. I say to the north because the reservation lies to the north and it would be convenient, so far as the Indians are concerned, if any additional areas of land are consolidated into solid blocks that adjoin their present holdings. Senator WHEELER. Where is the railroad land-south or north? Senator HAYDEN. On both sides of the track. Mr. GRORUD. How far? Senator HAYDEN. Forty miles; some of it beyond that where the exchanges run, but from where we are standing 40 miles north and 40 miles south; and, as you get beyond the checkerboard area you very soon come into the Navajo Reservation. I do not mean the original treaty reservation, which was comparatively small, some three or four million acres, but there have been added to that reservation about 11,000,000 acres by Executive order, and it is the Executive-order part of the reservation that lies immediately north of here. So, for the convenience of the Indian, if there is to be a consolidation, generally, that consolidation should be north of us. In the southern part of the belt should be the lands in white ownership. If by exchange or by purchase a considerable amount of real-estate value is taken off the tax roll in one county and added to the tax roll in another county, there is an injustice done as between counties. So, there are three parties in interest. There are the Indians, the white landowners, and the counties affected by the transfer, so fas as taxable values are concerned. That is the problem in general as I see it. It seems to me that it ought to be possible for Congress to enact legislation authorizing the consolidation of these lands in such a manner that it would be fair to the Indians, fair to the white men, and fair to the counties affected in this respect. There are present here representatives from the boards of supervisors of these counties, and I would like to ask, as a matter of courtesy, that they be heard. J. A. KELLAM was thereupon called as a witness, and after being first duly sworn, testified as follows: Senator FRAZIER. Give your name for the record. Mr. KELLAM. J. A. Kellam. Senator FRAZIER. What is your official office? Mr. KELLAM. I am a member of the board of supervisors of Coconino County. Senator FRAZIER. That county lies in what direction from where we are now? Mr. KELLAM. North. Senator FRAZIER. Part of this Leupp Reservation is in your county? Mr. KELLAM. It is; yes, sir. We have the county map if you gentlemen would like to see it. Senator FRAZIER. We are familiar with the map. Senator WHEELER. Tell me this: How much land lies in this checkerboard area within your county? Mr. KELLAM. All of the lands outside of the national park, practically all of the lands in the county. Senator WHEELER. Are checkerboarded? Mr. KELLAM. Other than the Navajo Reservation. Senator WHEELER. Are checkerboarded? Mr. KELLAM. Yes, sir. That is, the land within the forest area is not. They are all consolidated back to the Government and the other lands within the county are checkerboard lands. Senator WHEELER. How much of it is owned by the railroad company-the Santa Fe Railroad? Mr. KELLAM. A large per cent of the land has been transferred from the Santa Fe Co. to the livestock men of the county. I am not able to give you the exact amount that the Santa Fe still owns, but I think the checkerboard lands within the county are largely owned by individuals. I think the biggest per cent of it has been turned over to the livestock interests of Coconino County; however, the Santa Fe still owns some lands. Senator HAYDEN. You will observe Winslow is about 3 miles from the Coconino line to the west. Senator WHEELER. Is the Leupp Agency in Coconino County? Mr. KELLAM. Yes, sir. The Leupp Agency is on this unsurveyed land. This land in here is unsurveyed land, where it does not show the checkerboard. Senator WHEELER. Show me where it shows the checkerboard. Senator WHEELER. Is the red the Indian or is the red privately owned? Mr. KELLAM. Privately owned. The privately owned sections are the odd sections. Senator WHEELER. That is taxable land? Senator HAYDEN. The red then would be Mr. KELLAM. All the checkerboard lands that are surveyed are taxable lands. This unsurveyed land, I believe, is not on the tax roll. Senator HAYDEN. You will observe, gentlemen, from the county line, which is about 3 miles west of Winslow, across the entire length of the county until you come to the Navajo County line this checkerboard system extends the whole length of it, and, as Mr. Kellam has just explained, when you come within the Coconino and Tusayan National Forests by exchanges made years ago the forest area has been consolidated, and I might say in that respect there was surrendered in that area cut-over land, land bearing a very small growth of timber and script issued for it, which, I am told, was applied on some of the finest redwood lands in northern California. That was a great scandal in those days that Congress has since stopped by not permitting exchanges acre for acre but has taken into consideration values. You will observe the effect of it is that their title has passed to the railroad company, as marked in these sections in red, which shows upon the tax roll. That intervening land is still public domain or, if the State has selected under its grants, those lands are not yet taxable. Mr. KELLAM. I have misrepresented. These lands are not the taxable property; the lands within the forest and belonging to the United States Government are not taxable land. Senator WHEELER. Yes; we understand that. But are all these red areas Mr. KELLAM. In fact 85 per cent of the land within the boundaries of Coconino County are not taxable lands. Senator WHEELER. Eighty-five per cent? Mr. KELLAM. Eighty-five per cent. Senator HAYDEN. That is made up of Mr. KELLAM. Forest reserves, the Navajo Reservation and the national park. Senator WHEELER, What is the normal tax upon ground or land not improved? Mr. KELLAM. You do not mean agricultural land? Mr. KELLAM. They are assessed at 85 cents an acre. That is, taking the country as a whole. Some of them are a little more; some a little less. Senator WHEELER. What would be the tax per acre-about 11⁄2 cents? Mr. KELLAM. May I ask what the tax rate is. I have forgotten offhand. The tax rate on that land is about $1 an acre. Approximately 2 cents an acre, I am told. Senator HAYDEN. In that connection I may state in observing the assessments made upon this checkerboard land you will usually find that the owners have claimed it is not so valuable because it is in the checkerboard form, and undoubtedly if the areas were consolidated the values of any area that was bunched up would be increased, and in that respect the counties would benefit. Mr. KELLAM. There has been some agitation also as to the Government leasing the unappropriated land. I do not believe they would be able to lease these lands to any advantage as long as they are in a checkerboard form, but if they were consolidated then they would be more desirable to a man who wished to lease them. Of course, privately owned land would interfere with Government land. Senator WHEELER. Do you think a system could be worked out whereby an exchange of these lands could be made? That is a pretty difficult thing it seems to me. You would have to take it up with each individual? Mr. KELLAM. Well, a better way would be to leave it to the individual himself and then for your man who is authorized to make the exchange. Of course, you could not force an individual to make an exchange unless he so desired after he has acquired patent to the lands. However, I think a large per cent of the stockmen would be more glad to consolidate their holdings in order that they might fence it and improve it by watering it and having absolute control of it. At the present time you do not have absolute control of your lands. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Is a large percentage of the public lands partially covered by patents to individuals or homesteads? Mr. KELLAM. You mean the Government end of it? Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Yes; the Government end? Mr. KELLAM. A very small area of the grazing part. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. And considerable of that could be handled without regard to individuals, could it not? Mr. KELLAM. Oh, yes; practically all of it. We are not able to acquire title to any Government land other than by the homestead method. Senator ASHURST. There are some red squares in the southeast— Mr. KELLAM. These have been allotted to Indians. Probably if there is an Indian agent here he would be able to explain it better than I. It might be homesteaded. Senator HAYDEN. It would be in the Leupp extension? Mr. KELLAM. No; that has been allotted to Indians, I am sure. Mr. SCATTERGOOD. If that is still Indian territory, there would not be any individual allotments in the tribal Indian territory. Senator HAYDEN. I think the report of Superintendent Balmer at Leupp indicates a certain number of allotments have been made in |