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Senator THOMAS. No. We found several that were not allotted and the agent had money belonging to the individual Indians. Senator WHEELER. Do these Indians save any money at all?

Mr. BALMER. The average income of the Indian out here is around $300 a year.

Senator FRAZIER. $300 gross?

Mr. BALMER. Yes. Each family. You might figure out some arrangement to make him save some of the $300.

Senator FRAZIER. He might not eat quite so much.

Mr. BALMER. It is going to be a problem to pull them through with plenty to eat.

Senator THOMAS. Do you know any family anywhere that is mak ing any money on an annual income of $300?

Mr. BALMER. No.

Senator THOMAS. How do you expect these Indians to save any money then?

Mr. BALMER. I do not.

Senator FRAZIER. Ask him how long this Indian agency has been established here?

The INTERPRETER. The number of years he does not recall. He has seen them build with his eyes.

Senator FRAZIER. Ask him if he thinks this Indian Agency has been any help to the Indians on the Leupp Reservation here?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he thinks it helps them.

Senator FRAZIER. He has gotten some help?

The INTERPRETER. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. Do the Indians in his community like to have their children come here to school?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; you will find that the enrollment of this school is mostly from up there.

Senator WHEELER. Do all the Indians on the reservation go to school, do you know?

The INTERPRETER. In this particular

Senator WHEELER. All of them in his district; are they in school? Mr. BALMER. No, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How many of them are not in school?

Mr. BALMER. Approximately 100. There are many that are not well.

Mr. GORMAN. Speaking for the southern Navajos the census showed there is about 2,500 children that are of school age and no place for them to go to school.

Senator WHEELER. What do you mean by the southern Navajo? Mr. GORMAN. That is the Fort Defiance jurisdiction. This is the Leupp jurisdiction.

The INTERPRETER. He says a lot of their children come from up there where he lives to this school. The only obstacle they are up against is this water here. He says they are continually tormented by that wash there. Some day it might break and then it might flood the whole place and drown their children. That is the only objection they have to this school here.

Senator FRAZIER. That is all. (Witness excused.)

BA-GOSH-BEGA was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Mr. Gorman (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. Where do you live?
The INTERPRETER. Indian Wells.

Senator FRAZIER. Indian Wells?

The INTERPRETER. Indian Wells.

Senator FRAZIER. How far is that from here?

The INTERPRETER. Not very far.

Senator FRAZIER. How many miles?

The INTERPRETER. I do not know just how many miles.
Senator THOMAS. Ask him how many sleeps.

The INTERPRETER. No sleep, when you go in car.

the next day he got there.

Senator THOMAS. It is about 20 or 25 miles?

Mr. KANUно. About 65 miles.

Senator FRAZIER. How many sheep have you got?
The INTERPRETER. One hundred and fifty.

Senator FRAZIER. How many goats?

The INTERPRETER. Twenty.

Senator FRAZIER. How many cattle?

The INTERPRETER. Not a one.

Senator FRAZIER. How many horses?
The INTERPRETER. Eight horses.

Senator WHEELER. How many automobiles?
The INTERPRETER. No automobiles.

Senator THOMAS. Have you ever had one?
The INTERPRETER. No.

One over night,

Senator FRAZIER. Have you got a statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir; that is the reason why I came up here. Senator FRAZIER. All right; make the statement as brief as possible. The INTERPRETER. The country he is living on up there, Washington bought that land for them up there where they are living on about two or three years ago.

Senator THOMAS. Does he mean the Great White Father when he says Washington?

The INTERPRETER. The Government.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead.

The INTERPRETER. They did not do anything on that land ever since the Government bought that land for them, that Marty land, until just recently they went in there and 45 men went in there, 45 families went in there; and selected pieces of land and are developing farms.

Senator FRAZIER. Forty-five Indian families?

The INTERPRETER. Forty-five families.

Senator FRAZIER. Are they building homes in there?

The INTERPRETER. There was one house on there when the Government purchased the land from Marty, and they have that house, but they have built hogans on that place since then. They have a fence around there.

Senator FRAZIER. Where do they get their cedar to build the hogans with or the posts or logs?

The INTERPRETER. The fence was already on there. The posts were already there.

Senator FRAZIER. Where did they get the logs to build the hogans with?

The INTERPRETER. The house was on there already.

Senator FRAZIER. Yes; but he says they were built hogans.

The INTERPRETER. Cedar.

Senator FRAZIER. Where did you get it?

The INTERPRETER. Well, they get it around there, one here and there, all over that part of the country there. Finally they got enough so they can build a hogan.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead with your statement.

The INTERPRETER. They build their hogans like in that shape [indicating]; the corners are in that shape; and 24 feet square.

Senator FRAZIER. Are they plastered?

The INTERPRETER. Plastered on both sides.
Senator FRAZIER. Any windows in them?

The INTERPRETER. No windows.

Senator THOMAS. What do they use for plaster?

The INTERPRETER. Dirt and mud—adobe.

Senator FRAZIER. Go ahead with your statement.

The INTERPRETER. After they started to make improvements on this place, on the land they bought from Marty, Marty came back last spring and tried to push them out again, tried to push the Navajos out, and finally went to the stockman there, and the stockman just helped him all he could and they finally pushed them back; and John Corley was another man that was with the stockman. They have a hard time. They have a hard time making that man move off that place. It was a man that runs a store there, the trading post at Indian Wells-Sharp.

Senator FRAZIER. It must have been a very friendly trader that wants to steal all their land away from them.

Senator WHEELER. Is he on the reservation?

Mr. BALMER. When the Marty estate was sold, there was sold to outsiders sections 3 and 11. That is where this is at.

The INTERPRETER. He said that trader told him even though he had something to say about this land he has not got any business to say anything about it, and he says it probably would be to some advantage to have the land papers, a record of it, placed in the office here so that they could know that they are on their land.

Senator WHEELER. They have got that. Have you not got that in the office?

Mr. BALMER. Yes; we have a description of the land here, and the deed is on file in Washington.

Senator FRAZIER. Does it have to be surveyed, or has it been surveyed already?

Mr. BALMER. They give us a solid block in that particular township. The Government already had the even-numbered sections, and by buying the Marty estate we have the whole of it, with the exception of 3 and 11.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him that if he is in trouble with his land to notify the agent or the stockman, and they will protect him and see that no man comes and takes his land away from him.

Senator FRAZIER. Ask him if this is the licensed trader on the reservation.

The INTERPRETER. He is not on the reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. Is not the trader on the reservation?

Mr. BALMER. That is one of our big troubles in this section of the country. We have no control of most of the Indian traders because they are located on land owned by the railroad or on land owned by themselves; therefore, they are not compelled to take out licenses.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement you want to make?

The INTERPRETER. He says another case he likes to bring up is concerning the traders. They are not receiving any money for their pelt. They are not receiving any money for their wool. They are not receiving any money for their rugs that the women folks weave, and they are so low they do not just exactly know what to do about it. That is one of the biggest problems.

Senator FRAZIER. Ask him if he has borrowed any money from this trader or pawned jewelry?

The INTERPRETER. Well, he says he takes our pawn all right. Sometimes we have very few dollars, he says, but we have never received cash. We always receive tin, which is of no value to anybody, the way they look at it.

Senator FRAZIER. Is he talking about a licensed trader on Government property?

The INTERPRETER. He does not know whether they are licensed by the Government or not.

Senator FRAZIER. Is there a licensed trade up there, Mr. Superintendent?

Mr. BALMER. We have one, but those that are licensed are not using tin money.

Sentor FRAZIER. What is that?

Mr. BALMER. Using what we call tin money. It is the unlicensed traders that are using it.

Senator THOMAS. What do you mean by "tin money

Mr. BALMER. Tin chips instead of cash.

Senator FRAZIER. Do the licensed traders pay them cash for their produce? Does the licensed trader pay these Indians cash?

Mr. BALMER. On account of so much pawn being put in and so many months since the Indians have been able to take it out, no market last fall, and the low price of wool again this spring, they tell me that it is usually a case of giving them groceries and foodstuffs for their wool or going out of business because their credit has been practically ruined.

Senator THOMAS. I wish you would tell us why the traders issue their own money instead of issuing out regular American money? Is money that scarce down here?

Mr. BALMER. They have been doing it for years, Senator Thomas. We have done everything within our power to change it. In fact, it is not over a week ago I had it up with the United States attorney again at Phoenix and he is working on a case to see if there is not something that can be done; but this same thing has been presented to the United States attorney on several different occasions; not this particular United States attorney.

Senator FRAZIER. Any other statement?

The INTERPRETER. I want to make one correction. The tin money that they receive from the traders is just the idea that the traders have so they could have their trade, so they won't take their stuff to any other place, sell their wool at any other place, so they give them the tin money. They want the trade, that is the reason why, and he thinks as long as they have this tin money circulating in the Navajo country they will never amount to anything because they would not have any general access to other trading stores or other houses where they could get things cheaper. If they had American money, they could be able to buy stuff at the lowest price at other places for their money.

Senator WHEELER. Where is some of this tin money?

Senator FRAZIER. No other trader will take that tin money?

The INTERPRETER. No; he says. It is not even worth a nickel at other trade stores. You might have a whole pocket full of that and starve away up here in another place where they will not take the money.

Senator THOMAS. This coin, or whatever you call it, reads "J. L. Hubbell, 3635," in the center, "Fernando, Arizona. Good for $1 merchandise." The coin is about an inch and a half octagonal and made out of aluminum. Are they licensed traders who issue that tin money?

Mr. BALMER. Hubbell is a licensed trader.

The INTERPRETER. I think he is on a different reservation.

Mr. BALMER. At Ganado, Ariz., in another jurisdiction. I do not know whether he is licensed or not.

Mr. COLLIER. This is a different Hubbell.

Mr. BALMER. I understand Lorenzo has taken that business over. Senator FRAZIER. Do not the licensed traders issue this tin money? Mr. BALMER. Not on this reservation.

Mr. RHODES. If we ever catch a licensed trader issuing tin money, we cancel his license. Efforts have been made to prevent any licensed traders from circulating this tin money. It has been taken up with the United States district attorney so far without success. Senator FRAZIER. Any further statement?

The INTERPRETER. In connection with the pelts. blankets, and wool, he says the Navajo people in general are thinking why the wool has fallen down as it is. It is very cheap.

Senator FRAZIER. Tell him it is the same all over the country. The white men are getting low prices for wool, too.

The INTERPRETER. He thought you gentlemen had something to do with that.

Senator THOMAS. I will call the attention of the committee to another piece of tin money: It is in the same shape, only it appears to be the size of a quarter, made out of aluminum, apparently, and about as thick as this [indicating]. On one side we find the following notation: "J. H. McAdams." In the center the number "162." I can not read part of it at the bottom; but it is some place in Arizona. "Ganado, Arizona." On the other side in figures, "25 with a cent symbol, and writing or printing, "Good for 25 cents in merchandise."

Does that come from a licensed trader, or do you know? Does anyone know whether that is issued by a licensed trader or not?

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