Mr. SOUTH. Yes. I was over at Hungry Springs the other day and looked at the equipment there. I wanted to see where he was and the other man said you could not get over there to where he was, about 12 to 2 miles to the springs. I was there to see about that the other day, to see if I could arrange for water, and I did arrange to water all of his stock and not tear up the equipment. This fellow has pipes, tanks, and all that sort of stuff.

Senator THOMAS. Who is he?

Mr. SOUTH. Mr. McQukins.

Senator THOMAS. This man said he bought the pipes and put them in there himself.

Mr. SOUTH. I really do not know who the pipes belong to there. They were in there before I came here, but he clams a cow outfit put it in there 10 or 15 years ago.

Senator THOMAS. Where did you come from to this point?

Mr. SOUTH. I came from Gallup.

Senator THOMAS. Are you in the Indian Service?

Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. How long have you been in the Indian Service? Mr. SOUTH. About a month and a half or two months.

Senator WHEELER. Did you ever have any experience in stock before?

Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Where abouts?

Mr. SOUTH. Colorado.

Senator WHEELER. How long were you in the stock business in Colorado?

Mr. SOUTH. I had a ranch up there for five or six years; in Colorado.

Senator WHEELER. Did you raise sheep?

Mr. SOUTH. Sheep and cattle; mostly cattle.

Senator WHEELER. Where was your ranch?

Mr. SOUTH. At Blue Mountain.

Senator WHEELER. Where did you live before that?
Mr. SOUTH. In Oklahoma.

Senator THOMAS. What part?

Mr. SOUTH. Tulsa.

Senator WHEELER. There are no sheep down there?

Mr. SOUTH. I was in the cattle business down there.

Senator FRAZIER. They do not know anything about sheep down in Oklahoma. Are the conditions here about the same as they were in Colorado in connection with sheep?

Mr. SOUTH. They have very few sheep in Colorado. They are mostly cattle where I was. The best sheep are in Utah-the edge

of it.

Senator FRAZIER. How much do you know about sheep here on the desert and the care of them?

Mr. SOUTH. Well, the Utah sheep are in about the same country as this. The range conditions are about the same.

Mr. BALMER. I have talked to this man, and I sent Mr. South up two or three times in the past month to see him.

Senator WHEELER. He says he reported it to you two years ago and there has not been anything done about it.

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Mr. BALMER. He may have reported it to my former stockman two years ago, but he never did to me; and the pipe he mentioned, I believe, was Government pipe that was given to him to put in there; not pipe that he paid for.

Senator WHEELER. Government pipe?

Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Then the trader is using the Government pipe now. Does the Government furnish pipe to these traders?

Mr. BALMER. No, sir; I do not think that same pipe is there at this time.

Senator WHEELER. You better get that thing straightened up for him.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if he owns an automobile.

The INTERPRETER. I used to have one, but it died.

Senator FRAZIER. Anything else?

The INTERPRETER. That is all.

(Witness excused.)

M. A. SOUTH was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. What is your name?

Mr. SOUTH. M. A. South.

Senator ASHURST. I did not understand your statement that the strip of land is a half mile wide and 24 miles long on the correction line. That seems new to me, because in connection with the railroadgrant lands every alternate section would be public and the other section would be private land.

Mr. SOUTH. The Hopi Reservation comes down to the Navajo Reservation and there is a strip in there that belongs to the railroad. Senator ASHURST. A strip belongs to some railroad company? Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Is it a strip a mile and a half wide?

Mr. SOUTH. I do not know. It is between a quarter and a half mile, as I understand it.

Senator ASHURST. Is it what we call the correction line?

Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Do you not know how the railroad acquired that strip?

Mr. SOUTH. No.

Senator FRAZIER. It might have been purchased for a right of way. Mr. SOUTH. Yes; the way I understand it is something

Senator FRAZIER. I would suggest you inquire into that and see whether this trader has any legal right to it.

(Witness excused.)

BA-AH-KIDDY-HEGA was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified through Mr. Gorman (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. He lives at Cedar Springs, does he?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How many sheep have you got?

The INTERPRETER. Three hundred and fifty.

Senator FRAZIER. How many goats?

The INTERPRETER. About 50 goats.

Senator FRAZIER. Any cattle?

The INTERPRETER. About 40.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you raise any corn?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he plants corn.

Senator FRAZIER, How much corn do you raise?
The INTERPRETER. Four loads of corn last fall.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you got a statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. Yes.

Senator FRAZIER. Tell him to make it as brief as he can.

The INTERPRETER. He says the hardest problem he knows about with the people he is acquainted with is they want more land, some of this land that you have been talking about for quite a while. He says they have been talking about this land, exchange or something, ever since he was a boy. Now, he says he is getting quite old and he likes to see it put through.

Senator FRAZIER. They have not got it exchanged yet?

The INTERPRETER. They have not got it exchanged yet. He says you have come a long ways to help us out of this problem and we know you will help us and he says if this land could be exchanged, why, he says, we want to have at least one good night's sleep then. It is difficult to have one section belonging to the railroad and another section belonging to the Indians. Especially when we do not know much about the boundary line. If that could be exchanged, why, we will have a peaceful rest.

Senator WHEELER. Anything further?

The INTERPRETER. That is all.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what kind of a home he lives in.

The INTERPRETER. An old-fashioned hogan.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what it is made out of?

The INTERPRETER. Cedar posts laid one on top of another in a circle.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what kind of furniture he has?
The INTERPRETEK. No furniture.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if he would like to have a house built out of lumber?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he sure like to have a house like that. He would be very thankful when the Navajos live in houses like that. Senator THOMAS. Do you think the Navajo Indians would like to have houses made out of lumber with good roofs, windows, and doors?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he says he like to have houses like that, but we have not got any money; we have not got anything to pay for it.

Senator THOMAS. In some places the Government has assisted the Indians to build what might be termed "modern houses" and the Indians rather than live in the houses will still live in their tents or tepees. Do you think that situation would obtain here?

The INTERPRETER. He says they live in both. If they have a hogan and house, they would live in both of them. Right around where they live they are so far from any kind of timber it is practically impossible for them to get a foot of board; however, they would appreciate it if they had a foot of lumber to make something

out of it. They are living up in that country where there is hardly any forests of any kind exists-cedar, pine, or anything else.

Senator THOMAS. On this reservation there are practically no trees from which lumber could be made. There are no trees on this reservation from which lumber could be made?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; on the southern Navajo Reservation around Fort Defiance there is a mountain range there. That is the only timber that we have.

Senator FRAZIER. That is a long ways from here.

The INTERPRETER. Oh, yes; quite a ways. I imagine about 60 miles from where this man lives.

Senator WHEELER. Where do they get all of this turquoise? Do they mine it here?

The INTERPRETER. No; they do not mine it. They buy it from San Domingo, some from California, some from Nebraska, and different places. It is like jewelry. It is like a diamond ring to the white race, a turquoise. They consider it the same thing.

Senator THOMAS. The Indians have not progressed on this reservation to that point where they see any hope in the immediate future of living in wood or frame houses; is that correct?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; because they do not know. They were born on the reservation where there were no houses. They were brought right up in this same place all through their lives. How could they enjoy the modern conveniences if they are not acquainted with it?

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if he knows of any Indians who have frame, lumber houses in his section of the reservation?

The INTERPRETER. No, no.

Senator THOMAS. Ask the witness how much money he makes and handles each year?

The INTERPRETER. I do not know.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what he has to eat now?

The INTERPRETER. Corn, when he gets quite a stock of it, and sometimes squash when he has it; coffee, bread-Navajo bread-and mutton; that is all.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you eat goat meat?

The INTERPRETER. We call that mutton; it is all the same. We eat it just the same

Senator FRAZIER. In other words, he eats what he can not sell. Senator THOMAS. Ask him if he has plenty of the things he mentioned, all the time?

The INTERPRETER. He says he has plenty of corn, coffee, Navajo bread, and mutton. He says he eats four times a day.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if the Indians that live in his part of the country have plenty to eat now?

The INTERPRETER. Some families have very little to eat and others have a little more.

Senator THOMAS. I want to ask the superintendent to make a statement to the committee to what extent he is now issuing rations or has issued rations during the past winter?

Mr. BALMER. During the past four or five months we have issued not over $700 of rations to the entire reservation.

Senator THOMAS. How many people have made application for rations during the past several months?

Mr. BALMER. About 20 altogether.

Senator THOMAS. What do you issue to them as rations?

Mr. BALMER. Coffee, flour, sugar, beans, bacon, and baking powder. Senator THOMAS. You have plenty of supplies to serve your needs in this respect?

Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. And have plenty at this time?

Mr. BALMER. I just got a load in. I imagine we have. The property clerk could answer that question better than I can. I would like to ask one question. Will you ask this old gentleman if he does not have a stone house?

The INTERPRETER. Yes; he says he has a stone house, but he could not afford to reroof it. He don't have the money for it, and it is practically useless to him because they have not reroofed it for him yet.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if he has an automobile.

The INTERPRETER. I used to have one, but it fell over.

Senator FRAZIER. Ask him if times are getting harder and harder each year?

The INTERPRETER. Well, within probably the last few years back, he says, they had plenty, but it is gradually getting away from them. He says we have less cattle than we had a few years ago; then we have less sheep than we had a few years ago. We had horses a few years ago; we have not any now, he says, and they are gradually getting poorer all the time, but, he says, there is a little hope might turn back.

Senator THOMAS. I want to ask the superintendent another question. How much money do you have at this time that belongs to the Indians under your supervision, if any?

Mr. BALMER. I do not think there is any amount to speak of left. Senator THOMAS. I mean individual deposits in the form of tribal funds or individual funds?

Mr. BALMER. None.

Senator THOMAS. I think this is the first reservation that we found wherein the superintendent did not have a considerable sum of money on deposit belonging to the various Indians, from as much as $33,000 down to nothing. This is the first reservation, so far as I remember, where the Indians have nothing on deposit with the superintendent.

Mr. BALMER. I think you will find in the Navajo country, where they are trying to lease land, instead of leasing it to outsiders, they do not have this individual money, but in places where the Indians are leasing it to outsiders they are able to create such a fund.

Senator THOMAS. We found that down at Rice and White River the agent had considerable money belonging to the Indians, and the Indians were operating there very much on the same plan as the Navajos here. I am surprised that these Indians have not anything. On the Fort Apache Reservation there are still some lessees in that country that pay in that money.

Senator WHEELER. Do these Indians have money in the banks? Mr. BALMER. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. RHODES. Is not the explanation of that this, that the Navajo Reservation has not been allotted and settled?