Senator THOMAS. Does that vary from year to year or has that price been about that the last several years?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Does she get cash for the rugs or does she take them to a trader and trade them for merchandise?

Mr. CLARK. She trades them for merchandise.

Senator FRAZIER. Are not rugs cheaper this year than they were last year?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Wool is cheaper?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. What is she getting for the rugs she is selling now?

Mr. CLARK. Around 90 cents.

Senator THOMAS. It is down to 90 cents a pound?

Mr. CLARK. Ninety or ninety-five cents a pound.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Coming back to selling lambs, suppose you sold a hundred lambs, would they not all run about the same weight apiece?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. So you think you get just as much selling them per head as you would by the pound?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. That is the customary way of selling them in this country, is it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. You can tell pretty nearly the weight of a lamb, can you not?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. And how much it weighs by looking at it?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. What do they weigh as a rule when you sell them?

Mr. CLARK. They weigh from 40 up to 60 pounds; from 30 to 60 pounds.

Senator THOMAS. From 30 to 60 pounds and you get from $2 to $3 apiece?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Is that the same price they have been bringing for the last several years?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Is not the price of lambs cheaper this year than last year?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. What did you get last year for them?

Mr. CLARK. About $3.

Senator WHEELER. About $3; and this year you get from $2 to $3? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. What did you get the year before?

Mr. CLARK. $3.

Senator WHEELER. That is all.

(Witness excused.)

ADE-DO-NI was thereupon called as a witness, and, after being first duly sworn, testified, through Mr. Gorman (who was sworn as an interpreter) as follows:

Senator FRAZIER. What is your name?

The INTERPRETER. Ade-do-ni.

Senator FRAZIER. He lives at Cedar Springs?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Is Mr. Ade-do-ni a member of the chapter there? The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How many sheep have you got?

The INTERPRETER. Goats and sheep, about 500 altogether.

Senator FRAZIER. What do you have goats for? What do you keep goats for?

The INTERPRETER. For milk.

Senator FRAZIER. Is there any sale for the goats?
The INTERPRETER. No, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What kind of goats have you got?

The INTERPRETER. They are mixed Angora goats and the old Navajo goats.

Senator THOMAS. How many goats have you?

The INTERPRETER. About 100, including my family and myself. That is the goats we have.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you have enough water for your sheep and enough grass?

The INTERPRETER. He says he has not got enough water for his livestock, although he managed to develop a water hole right by his place, but it was on public land or else it was leased land, and cowboys got after him about it, and they took it away from him. He is right in Casa Butte country.

Senator FRAZIER. Can you not make a water hole on your own land on the reservation?

The INTERPRETER. Well, there is no way he could tell where there is water underground.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if there is any place he can build a dam to store some flood water?

The INTERPRETER. No; he says it is impossible because it is a sandy country up there.

Senator THOMAS. Do they not make charcos here?

The INTERPRETER. NO.

Senator THOMAS. They do not make charcos around here?

Mr. NEUFFER. They do not call them charcos here.

Senator THOMAS. What do you call them?

Mr. NEUFFER. Reservoirs.

Senator THOMAS. Do they make any reservoirs here?

The INTERPRETER. Well, he says we usually put a dam to store some water, but usually the water comes down and breaks it out because it is a sandy country.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you any other statement you want to make to the committee?

The INTERPRETER. Yes. That is one of the things he wanted to bring out. He got some boys from here to develop that water he spoke about a moment ago. He got 20 springs of long pipes, and he

connected those up so he could store some of that water that he got out of the water hole. Then the cowboys came along and piped it a little farther, and then they take it and store their water.

Senator WHEELER. Did he ever tell the agent about it?

The INTERPRETER. No; he never did tell the agent about it. Senator WHEELER. Is there not a subagent down there, a farmer. or something?

The INTERPRETER. Just the sheep men.

Senator WHEELER. A stockman or sheepman?

The INTERPRETER. He is the only one that goes up there once in a while. He says he never has an occasion to see him.

Senator FRAZIER. I do not suppose the stockman has any occasion to see this Indian, does he?

Senator WHEELER. Has the stockman ever been at his place?

The INTERPRETER. The one that was in before this one, that he succeeded about a month ago, he used to see me once in a while. This one did come in about a month ago and I have not seen him yet.

Senator WHEELER. He is the president of a chapter down there. is he not?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How often do you hold a meeting of your chapter?

The INTERPRETER. Once in a great while. We do not know just exactly how to go about it.

Senator WHEELER. Does the agent or anybody ever tell him how to go about it?

The INTERPRETER. How could they tell us anything about it if they do not come to see us? He says they never have been around where , he is at for quite a while.

Senator WHEELER. How long since they have been out to where he is at?

The INTERPRETER. He has not seen him at all, he says. They arranged a meeting up there about a month ago, the middle part of last month. They were expecting Mr. Balmer up there. Then some man was coming from the East, so he could not come up to see him. So he did not get a chance to come down here.

Senator WHEELER. Well, has the superintendent ever attended one of his chapter meetings?

The INTERPRETER. He was there about a month ago, at Dilkon, up in that country, but not up around his place.

Senator WHEELER. When they hold chapter meetings, does the superintendent come to your chapter meeting?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator WHEELER. Has he ever been up to a chapter meeting which you have held; has the superintendent ever been up to a chapter meeting?

The INTERPRETER. No; he has not.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if the chapter meetings are private or open to the public? Would they be open to the superintendent? The INTERPRETER. They are open; they are not private.

Senator WHEELER. The superintendent better get around to some of your chapter meetings.

Mr. BALMER. Senator Wheeler, I do not think they got what you are hitting at there.

Senator WHEELER. I think he understood it all right.

Mr. BALMER. He is talking about his chapter and not my visiting his home, but the meetings that are held at Dilkon where the chapter people congregate. I have been there. I have been over there.

Senator WHEELER. Ask him any question you want to.

Mr. BALMER. Ask him if he has not seen me at the chapter meetings at Dilkon.

The INTERPRETER. Yes. He says he made a remark he seen him at Dilkon. Mr. Hunter and Mr. Balmer came to Dilkon once when there was a wagon being issued out or something.

Senator WHEELER. How long ago was that?

The INTERPRETER. It was about four days before the end of the month; probably the 20th of last month.

Senator FRAZIER. Have you got any other statement you want to make?

The INTERPRETER. One of the greatest problems we are confronted with is the water development. He says they need to have more water on their land. They have not got water enough at all.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, how can they get the additional water? The INTERPRETER. Dig for it and see how far there is water down the ground.

Senator FRAZIER. You want wells put in down there, do you?
The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what he meant by that [indicating] holding his hand up in the air. Does he mean a windmill?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. They have put in windmills down in this part of the reservation and there is no reason why they should not have them up there.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him to describe the house in which he lives? The INTERPRETER. He lives in a hogan. He says he lives in cedar hogan laid one on top of another and then no windows in it. It is not plastered on the inside; one door, dirt top.

Senator FRAZIER. Plastered on the outside, is it?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator FRAZIER. On the outside?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator FRAZIER. It is not plastered at all?

The INTERPRETER. No.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him if it has solid walls, or can the wind get through?

The INTERPRETER. Just in the cracks.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him how large the house is?

The INTERPRETER. About a space like this [indicating].

Senator FRAZIER. Why do you not plaster the cracks between the logs?

The INTERPRETER. When it is cold we plaster it.

Senator FRAZIER. When it is warm you do not have to?
The INTERPRETER. We need fresh air in the summer time.

Senator THOMAS. Ask him what furniture he has in his house? The INTERPRETER. Nothing. Eleven years ago he decided to build a house there but could not do it because the cowboys were continually after him to move off that land and he says he has those hogans. It has been 11 years ago. It has been 20 or 22 years ago he built that water hole over there and 11 years ago they tried to run him off the place, move him off, and when the cowboy would leave he would move in their homes, then occupy those hogans there. He could not build a house of any kind.

Senator WHEELER. You tell him to take it up with the superintendent and see the superintendent about protecting him in connection with that water, if he can.

The INTERPRETER. There is a man by the name of Willey that move into that place two years ago, and he wanted to have this old man's place investigated, whether he put that water hole on the railroad land or whether he put that water hole on his own land. He wanted to have it surveyed and reported to the agent so he could have it surveyed, but he said nothing has been done about it.

Senator WHEELER. Did he take it up with the agent?

The INTERPRETER. Yes, sir; he told him about two years ago. Senator WHEELER. And the agent has not done anything about it? The INTERPRETER. Nothing.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. He is still there, though, on his water rights, is he?

Senator WHEELER. No; they have taken the water away from him. The INTERPRETER. He says they only told him to wait until it is investigated to see about that.

Senator WHEELER. That is what they generally do. What about that, Mr. Balmer?

Mr. BALMER. I believe the place he refers to is what we call Hungry Springs. We have run those lines out.

Senator WHEELER. Where is his water? Is the water on his land? Mr. BALMER. No; it is on railroad land.

Senator WHEELER. Have you ever told him about it?

Mr. BALMER. Have you told him?

Mr. M. A. SOUTH. NO.

Senator WHEELER. Why?

Mr. SOUTH. I did not see him.

Senator WHEELER. Do you think this fellow has got a

Mr. SOUTH. That is leased land.

Senator WHEELER. He says he told the agent here two years ago.
Mr. SOUTH. I do not know about that.

Senator FRAZIER. You say the water hole is on railroad land?
Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What right have the cowboys to the water, then? Mr. SOUTH. The trader has that leased. It is a quarter of a mile wide and 24 miles long.

Senator THOMAS. What trader?

Mr. SOUTH. McQukins.

Senator THOMAS. Where are his headquarters?

Senator FRAZIER. How wide is the strip?

Mr. SOUTH. About 24 miles long and about a quarter of a mile. wide.

Senator FRAZIER. Is that all railroad land?