Senator WHEELER. Even though it had been done they might throw it open at any time; that is, it might be thrown open any time, and if it was thrown open at any time some white man can go in and locate on that piece of ground. So we would hardly want to build a well for the Indians upon the public domain, even if it had been withdrawn temporarily from settlement, because it could be thrown open. If it was thrown open, then some white man might go in and grab it off.

Mr. KANUHO. The one I referred to especially is over in the township where it is all Government land.

Senator WHEELER. But it does not belong to the Indians.

Mr. KANUHO. The railroad land was bought for the benefit of the Indians.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Is it land that has been bought from the Government by the railroad?

Mr. KANUHO. It is bought from the railroad.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. And is now held as Indian land and as a part of the Indian reservation?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Well, of course, that is different. Then its turn will come when the people can get around to it.

Senator FRAZIER. What do you know about this, Mr. Balmer? Mr. BALMER. There is quite a little work of that kind that we need done, and we included it in the survey.

Senator FRAZIER. Is it on the reservation or off the reservation? Mr. BALMER. The contract that Marcus mentioned is land that we bought from the Marty estate and is owned by the Navajo Tribe. Senator WHEELER. He wants a well up there?

Mr. BALMER. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. They need the well, all right; do they?

Mr. BALMER. Yes. It is an experiment when it starts in, because I do not believe there have been any wells built that have done the work in that township. We have done some experimental work this year instead of the well. If we get sufficient money that we can put some of these deep test holes, if it is necessary to go deep we will probably get some wells there too; but to take $3,000 or $4,000 that we get and experiment in that way, rather than do that

Senator WHEELER. You would rather take it to where you were sure of getting the water?

Mr. BALMER. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. Anything else?

Mr. KANUHO. The next is this sheep question, the improvement of the sheep on this reservation.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you have some sheep of your own?

Mr. KANUнO. I have a little; yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How many have you?

Mr. KANUHO. A few at home with my mother. For the last 15 or 20 years the Government has told the Indians about improving their sheep and they have been trying to do it but they were never successful at it. When they got these improved sheep from the other places and take them into our reservation, they are not used to the ranges. Of course a lot of them are lost and the Indians lost most of their bucks and rams, so they have been having trouble with them quite a bit, but still there is a few of them that made a little

improvement in the sheep; and, at the same time our agent and stockman kept telling us Indians if they improve their sheep they will get a better price for wool and in weight; so it is true that we will get more for the sheep if they are improved, but, at the same time they do not get it to-day. The Indian takes the lambs to some of the traders. He does not sell them over the scale. They just look at the teeth and tell the age of it and we get just as much money for the poor sheep as we will for the improved sheep, just by the age.

Senator FRAZIER. Do you not sell them by the pound?
Mr. KANUHO. No, sir; we do not.

Senator FRAZIER. Just so much a lamb?

Mr. KANUHO. Just so much a lamb. That is the way they have been doing it. When our former superintendent was here I took that up with him and he instructed some of the traders here to put in scales and also corrals where these Indians could come and bring the sheep and have the licensed trader buy or sell their sheep over the scale; but when he left the scale was taken out and the corral torn out.

Senator WHEELER. What about that?

Mr. KANUHO. So the trader he takes the sheep and he gets the benefit.

Senator WHEELER. You have employees of the Government here who are supposed to protect you in that. If they do not protect you in that matter they are to blame.

Mr. BALMER. That set of scales that Marcus mentioned was a big cattle scale they put in there for the weighing of cattle.

Senator WHEELER. What about these Indians getting the benefit of the improved sheep? If they do not get a price for the improved sheep over what they do for the poor ones, there is no incentive to put them in.

Mr. BALMER. At times we get a higher price for our Navajo wool here than they do for the improved wool and I believe some of the traders can explain that to you more fully. At times it is easier to sell the Navajo wool than the improved wool.

Senator WHEELER. What is the difference?

Mr. BALMER. The Navajo is a long wool.

Senator WHEELER. If you can get a getter price for your Navajo wool than you can for the other wool, you better let the Navajos raise their own sheep then.

Mr. BALMER. This year they are quoting a higher price on the improved wool than on the Navajo wool.

Senator WHEELER. Who on the reservation here, protects these Indians in reference to that and finds out what the difference in price is, so they are not at the mercy of the trader?

Mr. BALMER. We are always studying the market on it. Senator WHEELER. Do you Indians know what the market is and are you protected? Does this superintendent protect you?

Mr. KANUHO. We only find out the price of the wool and the price of lambs through the trader.

Senator WHEELER. Does not your superintendent or your agency force here tell you what the price of wool is and what the price of lambs are? Do they not try to protect you in the sale of them?

Mr. KANUHо. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALMER. Marcus is not raising much of that stuff. I think if you will ask some of the other Indians you will find we are working with them all the time.

Senator WHEELER. If Marcus is not giving the straight of it we will find out.

Senator FRAZIER. How about the amount of wool clipped from each sheep, the old Navajo sheep and the improved breed of sheep. Do you get more wool from the improved breed?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. How much more?

Mr. KANUHO. Well, we get about 3 pounds off the unimproved sheep and probably from 4 to 5 pounds from the improved sheep. Senator WHEELER. What is that?

Mr. KANUнO. Four to five pounds off the improved sheep.
Senator WHEELER. How much on the other?

Mr. KANUнO. About 3 pounds.

Senator WHEELER. About 3 pounds; so that the improved sheep is better for the Indians than the other, is it not?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. If you get the same price for the wool; but if it does not sell for as high a price it may not be as good.

Senator THOMAS. What do you get for the Navajo wool?

Mr. KANUHO. I do not know. The Indians got 15 cents a pound last year.

Senator THOMAS. For the Navajo wool?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir; they got the same price for the improved wool.

Senator FRAZIER. They did get the same price last year?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator FRAZIER. What about the situation this year?

Mr. KANUHO. We are getting 10 cents a pound.

Senator FRAZIER. For both kinds.

Mr. KANUHо. For both.

Senator FRAZIER. Well, you get more wool from the improved sheep, consequently you get more money for the wool; is that right? Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. Do you raise any sheep?

Mr. KANUHO. My folks do.

Senator THOMAS. What is a lamb worth?

Mr. KANUнO. I do not know what it is worth this year.

Senator THOMAS. What was it worth last year?

Mr. KANUHO. Last year it was around $2 or $3.

Senator THOMAS. $2 to $3. And the wool was worth how much

off the sheep, not off the lamb?

Mr. KANUHO. Off the sheep, 50 or 75 cents last year.

Senator THOMAS. The only market you have for your lambs and wool is from the traders?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. If there is only one trader, then you have no competition; is that so?

Mr. KANUHO. We have one trader. In this Leupp district there is one trader here and one trader down here about 2 miles and then another trader north of here about 15 miles.

Senator THOMAS. Do the Indians go from trader to trader to see where they can get the best price?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do you have any outside buyers come into the reservation?

Mr. KANUHO. No, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How do these traders treat you? Do they treat the Indians pretty square or not?

Mr. KANUHO. Well, it is brought to my attention from several Indians that have been selling wool; they have been selling wool over here to these traders, one over here at the bridge, 2 miles from here, and they have requested money for the wool but they would not given any cash for it.

be

Senator WHEELER. Do they have to take it out in trade?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir; but there is one trader south of here that is paying cash for wool. That is at Canyon Diablo.

Senator WHEELER. Do these traders charge you more for the merchandise you buy from them than you are charged in town? Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. How much higher?

Mr. KANUHO. I could not say, but I understand from the Indians that they pay a whole lot more than they do from town.

Senator WHEELER. If you had some wool to sell, there is nothing to prevent you from taking it to Winslow, is there?

Mr. KAUNHO. No; only transportation. It is quite a ways to

town.

Senator THOMAS. It costs the trader something to haul your wool down town and it costs something to bring the goods out here. You must take into consideration, of course, he does not have to pay any rent, I presume, and his expenses are less here; but, nevertheless, it costs something to bring the goods out and to take your supplies back, which would justify a slight increase in the stuff you buy from him and a decrease in the stuff you sell. It should not be very much, but it would be a little.

Senator WHEELER. Anything else?

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. Do these traders give these Indians long credit for the goods they sell to the Indians? Do they get a long-time credit?

Mr. KANUHO. I do not know how it is here, but I know in the Casa Butte district they do.

Mr. SCATTERGOOD. What do you mean by a long time? Three months or six months?

Mr. KANUHO. Well, they have their bond; they usually have some of their valuables in pawn and they will keep the property, some jewelry they have during the winter and have it there as security until the springtime when they shear their sheep, and if they can not redeem it then they will hold it until the fall when they sell some lambs.

Senator THOMAS. Are you a patron of this school? Have you any children going to this school?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Tell the committee about the floods. How often do they come?

Mr. KANUHO. According to the flood I have seen-I have only seen one flood that I would call a flood, and that was in 1924. That was before the river changed its channel up here. It rained here about two or three days and the river overflowed its bank and came right into the school over here on the northern end of the building. That is the only time I have seen it come into the school. Most of the water went on the south side of this school back into the river down here at the bridge.

Senator FRAZIER. How deep did it get on the school ground then? Mr. KANUHO. At the boiler house I believe it got a foot deep; that is the boiler house and laundry back here. That is about the north end of this school.

Senator THOMAS. How long have you been familiar with this locality?

Mr. KANUHо. Since 1915.

Senator THOMAS. That is 15 years?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. There has been only one flood of that kind that you know of and have noticed?

Mr. KANUHO. Yes; that is all. Quite a number of years ago, probably 20 years ago, according to the Indians, that is the only time they were ever flooded. There was a flood that came into this school, too, but after last summer when I was here and after the river broke its channel up here it came away around south about a mile or so, south of the main channel, and then, of course, it broke through by the store here [indicating] and a lot of the water went around the south side of the school and came into the school, back here.

Senator THOMAS. Well, at this time, with the channel of the river where it is, is the school liable to be flooded more than it used to be, do you think?

Mr. KANUHо. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Do you think there is any danger of the river getting up and breaking through the levees and drowning anyone here in the school building or at these residences? Is that a danger, do you think, or just an inconvenience?

Mr. KANUHO. It is hard for me to say, but I believe if there was any great amount of water and it should break the dike it will all go on the south side of this school.

Senator THOMAS. Where?

Mr. KANUHO. Right back in here [indicating].

Senator THOMAS. And the school grounds will not be very badly damaged, in your opinion?

Mr. KANUHO. I do not think so.

Senator THOMAS. Do the Indians want this school and agency moved away from here?

Mr. KANUнO. According to the talk that we had-that was brought before us by the superintendent when he wanted to get the opinion of the Indians about moving the school-they thought this: The way it was put here, if this school had been moved, they agreed on two sites, one west of it across the two bridges over here and one over here toward Winslow some place where the site was picked

out.