USE OF TECHNOLOGY TO PRODUCE A BETTER LIFE

Now, if these analyses of your thoughts are accurate, may I put this question. Do you agree, however, that the demonstrable methods of modern accelerative technology are a legitimate and a proper additional tool in determining how we best produce this new life, this more humanized life, a more orderly and more attractive life system that we all seek, and that technology itself is not antagonistic to humanity and to the human quality of existence, but rather that they go hand in hand and intelligently apply both modern technology and humanistic spirit can work side by side to produce a better life do you agree with this? Mr. MUMFORD. First of all, thank you for the summary. It is a better summary of my thought than I could give myself.

Second, let me say that I have no abstract bias against large organizations, because large organizations are sometimes the only ones that are possible.

I don't want to see a small A.T. & T., for example. I think the ideal organization for A.T. & T. is one which extends over the entire country and has a monopoly of the telephone service. I am full of admiration for the kind of planning such an organization does. It does an enormous amount of social thinking before it even locates the next telephone exchange. So it isn't a question of bias.

On the other hand, all these large organizations are governed by a money ideology. They are interested in all the problems of humanity, as long as they are sure of a guaranteed return of at least 8 percent, but hopefully much more. They will rapidly enter any field that promises more than 8 percent. If 15 is promised, they will rush in with eagerness, almost violence.

And on the other hand, if you were to say, "We appreciate your services to the community, we need your technology, we need all the skills you have assembled, but in order to balance up with other things, we guarantee only that you will get 32 or 4 percent. But you must not expect inordinate profits and you must not be tempted by them, we want you to go into phases of industry on a small scale where the profits will be small too"-this would be heresy, of course, from our present standpoint, and very unacceptable as you all know.

Senator BAKER. I think it probably isn't heresy today, Mr. Mumford. As a matter of fact, I am attracted to the notion that now, today, after our population gets above the minimum starvation level, the American society is really meaning-oriented, or quality of life oriented, rather than economic or money oriented, and that is a pretty radical statement I suppose, but I believe that to be the case.

Mr. MUMFORD. I hope you are right.

URGENT PROBLEMS FACE CITIES

Senator BAKER. I hope so, too.

Let me ask you one other question that the chairman touched on, and which I think is most pertinent to a practical consideration of the spectrum and variety of ills that our urban and rural centers suffer from.

We really have two problems. We have the problem of our current dilemma in the urban sprawl, in the impacted city areas. We have

this as an immediate urgent human consideration. What do we do about this disadvantaged generation?

And then we have the second problem-and they aren't necessarily parallel, they aren't necessarily always interrelated-of what we do to plan better for the next generation.

But you can't solve one by ignoring the other. It seems to me that there has to be some application of effort to the solution of both these concepts. Would you agree with that?

LISTEN FOR LOCAL RESPONSE TO PROBLEMS

Mr. MUMFORD. Yes, I would agree. I would say that the most urgent thing is to help these smaller units to help themselves. They need encouragement. And the first way you encourage them is to listen to

them.

I live in a small community, and people for a long time never would attend the open public meetings to discuss matters like schools and roads that relate to the real needs of the community. They let the selectmen meet and decide.

But the selectmen have made a series of very poor decisions. And to my great surprise and delight, the whole town turned out recently to speak up to the selectmen and tell them that they have got to change their policy and their plans.

Now, this is the first thing in planning-we must first listen for the local response. We have it, for example, in New York. Again, today's paper report that the board of education now, as a result of intense protest in the Negro communities of Harlem, is going to accept the people of the neighborhood as helpers and advisers in their educa tional program.

This is a wonderful change. It was accompanied by excessive intransigence and unreasonable demands. That is inevitable when a situation gets tense. But the upshot of it is that the board of education, which ran things highhandedly without any respect of any local community, because there wasn't in the past any local community there to talk to them, now has begun to listen. So my answer to you is this: A great many people will finally discover what I am sure all you gentlemen who have been interested in politics long ago discov ered for yourselves, that the most interesting, and most arduous game in the world is the game of politics. To actually take part in managing men and managing public affairs is one of the greatest and most satisfactory arts in the world. All of us now have leisure for this occupation and the local community might play a part that it has never played before, because of that leisure.

Senator BAKER. I think your point is well made, Mr. Mumford. I would like for the sake of brevity to move on to my last and concluding question.

Senator RIBICOFF. I think you are doing very well. Take as much time as you want.

DUAL APPROACH TO CITY PROBLEMS

Senator BAKER. Thank you, sir.

This is a two-part question-that is now and in the future, now as the palliative and the future for a better and more permanent solu

tion-it seems to me that the question of the relationship of the city center to the Nation as a whole, both urban areas, suburban areas, medium and small towns and the like is a two-part consideration.

It seems also to me that we have got to accept the fact and probably in the light of the fact that our cities traditionally and historically have been cultural centers, have been centers of dynamic energy which lead to civilization. But at the same time, one of the greatest wastes of a national asset is the proposition that some 70 percent of our land is uninhabitated.

Might not both the present and the future solutions to our quality of life dilemma be to find some better way to make the less populated areas patently attractive to new generations and to the present occupants of the more impacted areas of our urban centers, without going into some highhanded planning to move people away; but rather to make less populated areas more basically attractive to people, so they will populate them?

Would it seem to you that these dual approaches, that is upgrading the quality of the structure of urban life on the one hand, and making more attractive the quality of rural life or semirural life on the other hand, might go hand in hand? Urban and rural improvement are bound up together.

ENCOURAGE DEVELOPMENT OF NEGLECTED AREAS

Mr. MUMFORD. There are plenty of historical examples of that. The various communities in the South, for reasons that are sometimes excellent, attracted an enormous amount of New England industry, as you know, because there were more favorable conditions for operating in the South than there were in the North.

So Arizona and New Mexico, without any serious planning, have had their special regional resources recognized, and people have been moving into these areas in great numbers.

These things could be encouraged, of course. Admirable areas have been neglected sometimes, like the Appalachian region. The Appalachian region has wonderful qualities for living, but since the basis of industry in the Appalachian region, particularly around West Virginia and Pennsylvania, was coal mining, they created unattractive communities that nobody wanted to move into. But with a sufficient amount of resourceful planning, the whole Appalachian highlands might be a new center of a new kind of urban community.

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HUMAN BEING AND HIS ENVIRONMENT

Senator BAKER. And I sense that you and I possibly agree without saying so, that it is a basic matter of human nature that there is some interaction and relationship between the human being and his environment.

Mr. MUMFORD. Right.

Senator BAKER. And that each takes something of the personality and character of the other, so as we change or modify and upgrade and make more attractive either an urban area or a rural area, we are likely to produce a corresponding change in the collective personality of the inhabitants of that area, which in turn will have a vast impact on

the crime rate and the morality rate, on the whole range of social problems that confront the nation.

Mr. MUMFORD. No doubt of it. That is because the human environment is a very varied and complex one. The mechanized environment has certain virtues of its own, but it is not a complex one and it is not sufficiently varied to sustain all human activities.

Senator BAKER. I might point out, Mr. Mumford, that there is pending before the Senate a resolution by Senators Church and Nelson. which, Mr. Chairman, is Senate Joint Resolution 64, that I would like to include in the record.

Senator RIBICOFF. Without objection, it will be included in the record.

(The resolution referred to follows:)

EXHIBIT 242

[S.J. Res. 64, 90th Cong., second sess.]

JOINT RESOLUTION To establish a Commission on Balanced Economic Development Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

DECLARATION OF PURPOSE

SECTION 1. The Congress finds and declares that there is a need for more information and understanding concerning the means for achieving a better geographic balance in the economic development of the Nation. With a view to providing such information and understanding, it is the purpose of this joint resolution to establish a bipartisan commission to undertake a thorough study and analysis of current geographic trends in the economic development of the Nation, the causative factors influencing the same, the implications thereof in terms of the distribution of population, the effect of governmental actions in shaping such trends, and the factors, private and public, influencing the geographic location of industry and commerce as an aid in the formulation of policy at all levels of government.

ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMISSION

SEC. 2. (a) There is hereby established a commission to be known as the Commission on Balanced Economic Development (hereinafter referred to as the "Commission").

(b) The Commission shall be composed of twenty members to be appointed by the President as follows:

(1) Four members to be appointed from among residents of cities in the United States with a population of at least one million persons.

(2) Four members to be appointed from among residents of cities in the United States with a population of less than one million persons, but not less than one hundred thousand persons.

(3) Four members to be appointed from among residents of cities in the United States with a population of less than one hundred thousand persons, but not less than ten thousand persons.

(4) Four members to be appointed from among residents of towns, villages, and communities in the United States with a population of less than ten thousand persons.

(5) Four members to be appointed without regard to residence or political affiliation from among citizens of the United States who are specially qualified by training, experience, or knowledge in any field pertinent to the subject matter to be studied by the Commission.

(c) In the case of each class of four members described in clauses (1), (2), (3), and (4) of subsection (b), not more than half shall be members of the same political party.

(d) For the purposes of clauses (1), (2), (3), and (4) of subsection (b), the population of any city, town, village, or community in the United States shall be determined upon the basis of data contained in the current decennial census of population taken in the United States.

(e) The Commission shall elect a Chairman and a Vice Chairman from among its members.

(f) Eleven members of the Commission shall constitute a quorum.

(g) Any vacancy in the Commission shall not affect its powers, but shall be filled in the same manner in which the original appointment was made.

DUTIES OF THE COMMISSION

SEC. 3. The Commission shall undertake a thorough and objective study and investigation in furtherance of the purposes set forth in section 1. Such study and investigation shall include, without being limited to

(1) an analysis and evaluation of the economic, social, and political factors which affect the geographic location of industry;

(2) an analysis and evaluation of the economic, social, and political factors which are necessary in order for industries to operate efficiently outside the large urban centers or to operate and expand within the large urban centers without the creation of new economic and social problems; (3) a consideration of the ways and means whereby the Federal Government might effectively encourage a more balanced industrial and economic growth throughout the Nation;

(4) an analysis and evaluation of the limits imposed upon population density in order for municipalities, or other political subdivisions, to provide necessary public services in the most efficient and effective manner; (5) an analysis and evaluation of the effect on governmental efficiency generally of differing patterns and intensities of population concentration; (6) an analysis and evaluation of the extent to which a better geographic balance in the economic development of the Nation serves the public interest;

(7) an analysis and evaluation of the role which State and local governments can and should play in promoting geographic balance in the economic development of a State or region; and

(8) an analysis and evaluation of practicable ways in which Federal expenditures can and should be managed so as to encourage a greater geographic balance in the economic development of the Nation.

(b) The Commission shall submit to the President and to the Congress a report with respect to its findings and recommendations not later than two years after the effective date of this joint resolution.

POWERS AND ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS

SEC. 4. (a) The Commission or, on the authorization of the Commission, any subcommittee or member thereof, may, for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this joint resolution, hold such hearings, take such testimony, and sit and act at such times and places as the Commission, subcommittee, or member deems advisable. Any member authorized by the Commission may administer oaths or affirmations to witnesses appearing before the Commission, or any subcommittee or member thereof.

(b) Each department, agency, and instrumentality of the executive branch of the Government, including independent agencies, is authorized and directed to furnish to the Commission, upon request made by the Chairman or Vice Chairman, such information as the Commission deems necessary to carry out its functions under this joint resolution.

(c) The Commission may appoint such staff personnel as it deems necessary in accordance with the provisions of title 5, United States Code, governing appointments in the competitive service, and shall fix the compensation of such personnel in accordance with the provisions of chapter 51 and subchapter III of chapter 53 of such title relating to classification and General Schedule pay rates. (d) The Commission may procure such temporary and intermittent services as is authorized by section 3109 of title 5, United States Code, but at rates not to exceed $100 a day for individuals.

COMPENSATION OF MEMBERS

SEC. 5. (a) Any member of the Commission who is appointed from the executive or legislative branch of the Government shall serve without compensation in addition to that received in his regular employment, but shall be entitled to reimbursement for travel, subsistence, and other necessary expenses incurred by him in the performance of duties vested in the Commission.