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We have your assurance, Mr. Haggerty, that if called upon by Government agencies, you are ready to work out a cooperative effort between governmental agencies, the unions, and the contractors for programs to advance training and education and job opportunities in your field.

Mr. HAGGERTY. That is correct, Senator.

Senator RIBICOFF. Do you want to make any further comment?

PROPER APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING IS ESSENTIAL

Mr. HAGGERTY. I was just going to make this comment with respect to apprentice training programs. I have worked on this type of thing for many, many years, and I have been a member of the Federal Advisory Council on Apprenticeship Training of the Department of Labor for 18 or 20 years, I believe. Only recently, in the last 3 or 4 years, has the apparent thought that you can train these boys very quickly and make them valuable citizens as well as good mechanics, gotten into circulation.

Unfortunately, this cannot be done. It would be a crime to give these boys half an education in a given trade, because he will be the last one employed and the first one fired when the times get tough, and the boss is all finished with his work. These boys should be stimulated to learn the trade properly, so they can be in competition for the job as a mechanic, when they graduate from their apprenticeship training. It is all right to use this present time, which is, of course, rather hectic and dangerous and all that sort of business. It is not fair to any boy to teach him any trade in a half manner or half teach a trade to any boy in the country.

I can see this coming up and too much of it going on. He will not make a living at the trade unless he has been properly taught. It takes 3 to 4 to 5 years, sometimes, to teach a boy all of the things he should know about his trade.

This matter of getting a lot of boys all of a sudden into a training program so they can get into a union and work at a trade, unless they are properly taught and do it properly with the help of the union and the contractors, who are the voluntary groups administering the affairs of that community, it is not good, in my judgment.

USE OF PENSION FUNDS FOR LOW-INCOME HOUSING

Senator RIBICOFF. Your union has large pension funds. Have you considered using some of your pension funds for low-income or moderate-cost housing?

Mr. HAGGERTY. Yes; I think that some time ago and a couple of vice presidents on the Executive Council of the AFL-CIO could elaborate on this in more detail, I know that a few years ago there was a request made by the executive council to all of our unions who had funds to invest them in the building of homes under FHA, and I have forgotten now what-Pete?

Mr. SCHOEMANN. I could not elaborate on it.

Senator RIBICOFF. I think the gentleman on your right wanted to make a comment.

83-453 0-67-pt. 15-7

ELECTRICAL WORKERS' UNION HAS INVESTED IN HOME LOANS

Mr. FREEMAN. I can elaborate on it, Mr. Chairman-from the International Electrical Workers' viewpoint.

A few years ago we were told by a group of contractors-talking about residential contractors, general contractors in California and San Francisco, to start with-they could not get money because of the high interest rate on the building money, and they wanted to know if we could loan them some money out of our pension funds, and somehow or other, funds that we had available.

We did this, to the extent that we made arrangements with people in 20 cities that we would take FHA and VA loans all guaranteed. Today we have over $200 million invested in this program.

Senator RIBICOFF. You mean your union has $200 million invested in this program?

Mr. FREEMAN. Yes; from various funds. The results were we were told in numerous cities, that if they had not gotten this money from us, they would not have had money to proceed with homebuildingthis is all homebuilding. Then, of course, it runs in price from possibly $10,000 to $12,000 and up to as high as $20,000, about as high as they go. But we have had plenty of experience in our organization in this connection, and we are very well pleased with the results. Senator KENNEDY. Can I just ask a question?

Was any of that housing constructed in the ghettos, or was it elsewhere?

Mr. FREEMAN. Well, only, I think, under military housing.
Senator KENNEDY. Excuse me?

Mr. FREEMAN. For military housing.

Senator KENNEDY. It was for military housing?

Mr. FREEMAN. Yes. The rest of it was all for individual homes. Senator KENNEDY. Was any of it used for housing in the ghettos ? Mr. FREEMAN. I doubt that. I do not think so.

INSTANT REHABILITATION HAS BEEN WELL RECEIVED

Senator RIBICOFF. There was considerable publicity about this instant rehabilitation in New York last week. Was that all union employment?

Mr. HAGGERTY. Yes, Senator. That is my information.

Senator RIBICOFF. Do the unions cooperate completely with the owners or government to do this instant rehabilitation?

Mr. HAGGERTY. As far as I know, yes. There was just a question of employing the building tradesmen to perform the work, and much of it was performed off the site on piers down on the dock to fabricate the module which they dropped into place, the dramatic part of it. Senator RIBICOFF. Would there be cooperation from the national union leadership for more of this instant rehabilitation which departs from normal union practices?

Mr. HAGGERTY. Yes; I am sure they would. If it were the wish of the sponsoring parties to build or to perform work close to the thing we are talking about, I would say they would cooperate; sure. They just worked on the job. I do not think they had anything to do with its

planning or anything else, just that they were employed. I think there were 125 carpenters and 25 plumbers employed on the site and off the site. They were not consulted about the idea of this type of struc

ture.

Senator RIBICOFF. I have received telegrams from two New York union district councils expressing their approval of New York's instant. rehabilitation program. I will place them in the record at this point. (The information referred to follows:)

EXHIBIT 211

NEW YORK, N.Y., April 15, 1967.

Senator ABRAHAM RIBICOFF,
U.S. Senate,

Washington, D.C.:

We wish to inform you that we are 100 percent in favor of 48-hour instant rehabilitation as performed last Tuesday in the Lower East Side of New York City; the system of construction is good for our men.

PAINTERS UNION DISTRICT COUNCIL 9,
AL SCARDINO, Business Agent.

NEW YORK, N.Y., April 15, 1967.

Hon. ABE RIBICOFF,

Senate Office Building,
Washington, D.C.

HONORABLE SENATOR: The Carpenters District Council of New York City consisting of 38,800 union carpenters wish to go on record as expressing their complete approval of the instant rehabilitation program in New York City. Today the rehabilitation project was completed. Personal inspection of the rehabilitated apartments into which the poor families were moved back is the best argument for the furtherance and success of the instant rehabilitation program.

We sincerely urge you to further any legislation or appropriation requested in the interest of this program to rehabilitate the slums in the ghettos of New York City.

CHARLES JOHNSON, Jr.,

President, New York District Council of Carpenters.

GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE WILLING TO COOPERATE WITH UNIONS

Senator RIBICOFF. There is no question in my mind because government operates that way-that as a result of this hearing today, you will get pretty fast calls from the Department of Labor and Department of HUD and Department of Education saying, "Well, let's sit down and discuss it."

Much has to be done by way of merit, by way of training, by way of apprenticeship. You are willing to do your share if called upon.

CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS OF UNIONS AND CONTRACTORS NEEDED

As Senator Kennedy indicated, in the past labor has been in the forefront in social and economic progress and social and economic reform. I think here is a great opportunity for unions and general contractors to sit down together and come up with some ideas and initiatives where this could work out for the benefit of the entire country because what benefits the entire country benefits labor and industry and finance at the same time.

I was interested in your statement that you believe in the profit motive, that much more can be achieved in successful construction and reconstruction of our cities if we do it on a profit motive than just on the basis of nonprofit. I have to agree with that point of view.

But because of this point of view, there is a great obligation and responsibility on your part. You gentlemen, in the labor movement, not only have experience but you have economists on your staffs. You have researchers on your staffs. And I would hope that during the weeks ahead you would be doing some solid thinking and come to government with some ideas. I personally do not think that government has all the brains and all the ideas and always takes the initiative. I think that government often is very slow on how to proceed on basic reforms.

INITIATIVE OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR WOULD BE WELCOMED

I believe there can be much that comes from the private sector in labor and management. Here is a great opportunity, not just to sit back and wait to be summoned by government to take some steps; but I would hope that when government, as a result of this hearing today, calls on you gentlemen for your advice and thoughts that you just will not sit back and wait for ideas from them. I think, frankly, they need to be fertilized with a lot of ideas both from the management and labor sides of the construction field.

As chairman and on behalf of this subcommittee, I am grateful to you gentlemen for coming here. I believe this is the first time that a group such as this has ever come before a committee of Congress and given us the benefit of your views. I believe that your views have been provocative. They have opened up some new thinking and some new ideas. I would hope that all of us have learned some lessons from your testimony here.

Senator KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, do you think we could have these figures

Senator RIBICOFF. Without objection, the figures will go into the record at this point.

(The information from "Negro Participation in Apprenticeship Programs," a report to the Office of Manpower Policy, Evaluation, and Research of the Manpower Administration of the Department of Labor, by F. Ray Marshall, project director, and Vernon M. Briggs, Jr., associate project director, December 1965, follows:)

EXHIBIT 212

TABLE A-1-NEGRO APPRENTICES IN APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS IN SELECTED BUILDING TRADES UNIONS IN WASHINGTON, D.C., 1963, 1964, 1965

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Sources: 1963 data: Commissioners Council on Human Relations, Washington, D.C.; 1964 and 1965 data: Office of Liaison of the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission.

Carpentry.

Cementmasons.

Electrical.

Lathers.

Painters.

Plumbers.

Roofers.

TABLE A-2.-ENROLLMENT IN APPRENTICESHIP CLASSES IN OAKLAND APRIL 1964

Sheetmetal workers.

Steamfitters.

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Plasterers..

Source: Headcount in Oakland schools.

TABLE A-3.-NONWHITE PARTICIPATION IN APPRENTICE PROGRAMS IN SELECTED NEW YORK BUILDING TRADES

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* Data supplied not by union but by Area Coordinator for the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Source: New York City Building and Construction Trades Council (except where indicated).

TABLE A-4.-TOTAL APPRENTICES AND NEGRO APPRENTICES SELECTED TRADES, CHICAGO, AUG. 22, 1966

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* Unknown, but accepted 11 between Dec. 1, 1965, and Aug. 1, 1966; 2 of these dropped out. Source: Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training.

TABLE A-5.-NEGRO APPRENTICES IN SELECTED UNIONS IN CLEVELAND, FALL, 1965

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1 Plus 1 Negro helper.

* The union reported that 3 Negro helpers would be initiated into the union in late 1965.

Source: Cleveland Community Relations Board.

11

2

20

5

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