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housing. This housing was not provided by detailed programs of regulation by the Government; rather, housing legislation made it attractive for builders to build. In a remarkably short time, we filled our most urgent housing demand. Detailed Government rehabilitation plans, new ideas of nonprofit corporations, ideas of slum people building their own housing, or dreams of new technology, will not produce rehabilitation and renewal as effectively as providing clear incentives to builders and contractors. They will, in turn, develop practical technology and highly efficient procedures to do the work.

HIGHLY SKILLED PEOPLE NEEDED FOR SUCCESSFUL RENEWAL PROGRAMS

In closing, Mr. Chairman, a point I would like to stress is that we in the Building and Construction Trades Department feel strongly that the success of any renewal or rebuilding program, mainly is dependent on the use of people highly trained and widely experienced in the construction business. These individuals must know their industry from A to Z, and this includes not only the building tradesmen, but the engineers, the architects, and the contractors. In this tremendously important national objective, which our department supports without equivocation and which we feel is being given invaluable impetus by this committee, the primary responsibility must be borne by those individuals thoroughly familiar with their training and know-how in all phases of construction.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator RIBICOFF. Thank you very much, Mr. Haggerty.

It is very obvious from your statement that this isn't a statement submitted by social or economic philosophers, but by a group of men who are deeply involved in the problems of building.

IS SOCIETY ORGANIZED TO UNDERTAKE A MASSIVE BUILDING PROGRAM?

Now, one of the things that worries me is this: We have today in urban America some 1.5 million substandard housing units which are known as the slums. It is estimated that to eliminate all of the slums in America and rehabilitate or to replace these 4.5 million substandard housing units, it will cost about $50 billion. It is estimated that to fully rebuild urban America will take about $1 trillionabout a thousand billion dollars. This includes, in addition to housing, providing and improving utilities and community facilities, it includes police, fire, and health protection, and much more.

Do you believe that we are organized as a people, both on a governmental and private scale to undertake that type of a massive rebuilding and building program in the next 10 years?

Mr. HAGGERTY. Well, Senator, from what I have seen of this program and the great need, I would say no, we are not organized. We have not put together all of the talent and facilities we have available to us in this great Nation under the leadership of our own Federal Government to the main committees.

A lot of the fields-I would say a number of the contractors and our own people in the union-have not been brought in. Whether or not we could make a contribution remains to be seen, but we should be given the opportnnity, at least, to make that contribution.

Most of us have spent many years of our life in this particular business, in all sorts of construction, and we probably could make a contribution.

However, I would answer your question by saying no, we have not had the opportunity of contributing to solving this problem.

GOVERNMENT HAS NOT SOUGHT ADVICE OF CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY Senator RIBICOFF. You mean to tell the subcommittee that HUD or other governmental agencies have not called in the construction trades or the construction industry to discuss the contribution the building and the construction trades could make toward a successful model cities program? You have never been consulted by governmental agencies? Mr. HAGGERTY. We had Director Weaver appear before our executive council and discuss the problem he had, but I do not believe that he called upon us to take part in the planning and development of the program.

Senator RIBICOFF. Let us say there was a program, to rebuild the slums. Is there a sufficient supply of construction labor to really do a job that massive?

ADEQUATE PERSONNEL WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR MASSIVE BUILDING PROGRAM

It is estimated it would take about a decade. Do we have enough skilled people to do that job?

Mr. HAGGERTY. I would say, Senator, if the program was planned as to time and place-which is most important, in the initial instance-I believe we could furnish the required personnel in the construction industry to do the job.

At the time we started with the well-timed program, we could then, I think, obtain additional types of construction mechanics to fill the need. Between all the groups involved, I am sure that a system could be evaluated and put into effect that would take care of the need.

NEW TECHNIQUES ARE ACCEPTED BY CONSTRUCTION TRADES

Senator RIBICOFF. You say that the construction trades willingly have accepted new methods, new techniques, new ideas and materials and methods.

Just this morning I noticed that the Sureme Court handed down a decision on the boycotting of the prefabricated doors, precut steel bands for the installation of pipe insulation, and matters such as this. [National Woodwork Manufacturers Association v. National Labor Relations Board, 386 U.S. 612 (1967)].

Would you want to give us some examples of where the construction trades have willingly accepted new methods and new techniques and new materials, Mr. Haggerty-you or any of the other members

here.

Mr. HAGGERTY. Well, I could start, Senator, and call up my colleagues at the table to supplement whatever answer I would give.

In the construction of construction buildings today, if you have noticed, sections of the face of the buldings, imitation stone, which

would be, oh, 20 feet long and 10 or 12 feet high in one piece, is being erected and installed on the face of the building. This replaces possibly a matter of 10 bricklayers who formerly laid the brick and put the stone in place by hand and by the old methods.

The new methods now are being done with about two or three men, an engineer and the bricklayer, and there might be an ironworker involved, or welder welding the whole piece in one piece to the structure of the building, in probably 20 minutes, completing what the old system would take probably a day with 10 men to do.

There are a lot of these new inovations which come in piece by piece which are developed by the contractor or the architect, and there has been no refusal on the part of our international unions to erect this type of thing or to install this type of equipment.

Senator RIBICOFF. Would any of you other gentlemen, from your union's experience, want to give some examples of where you have used shortcuts or new methods?

Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHOEMANN. I would.

Senator RIBICOFF. Would you identify yourself and your union.

ADVANCES MADE IN PLUMBING AND PIPEFITTING INSTALLATIONS

Mr. SCHOEMANN. Peter Schoemann, United Association of Plumbers & Pipefitters.

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I might say that the United Association has incurred many rapid changes in the installation of plumbing installations and pipefitting installations.

In many localities today, the cutting of threads on pipe is a thing of the past because of the innovation of introducing cooper installations where joints are made, not by pipe cutting or pipe threading, but by so-called welding operations.

In fact, stick welding is going to be a thing of the past in the very near future.

Those who know anything about welding realize that its inception and introduction required many hours of labor on one joint. It was nothing at all to take 5, 6, or 7 hours of labor on one joint. Today, with the introduction of the so-called microwire welding, a joint that used to take 5 and 6 hours is now done in approximately a half hour's time.

We have accepted these. innovations, and there is a multitude of other so-called prefab installations which we have accepted. Senator RIBICOFF. Is there any other gentleman who would like to comment?

EFFECT OF AUTOMATION ON OPERATING ENGINEERS

Mr. WHARTON. Hunter P. Wharton, Operating Engineers International Union.

I think our phase of the industry has very vividly shown that we have accepted changes. If you will just think back for a moment about some of the construction around here and walk up the street today, you will see the new type of machines that have a radius which cover the entire operation with one machine. In previous years you would have about five hoists doing the hosting of materials. Today, one machine does the work of four or five engineers which have been replaced

83-453 0-67—pt. 15

by the machine, and each one of those engineers had a group of men working with him.

And the line speed-the hoisting capacity of every piece of equipment has been speeded up. Often times.individuals say to us, "Your industry or your phase of the industry is automatic."

It is being automated to the degree that they are just pushing buttons in some remote the engineer can stand on the ground and operate the machine from the ground level. It used to be small shovels that were doing the excavating, maybe a three-quarter-yard shovel. Today it is a yard, yard and a half, 2 yards, depending on the areas in which they are working.

Everything in our phase of the construction industry has been advanced and is automatic, so to speak, or is mechanized.

EMPLOYMENT OF MINORITY GROUPS BY CONSTRUCTION TRADES

Senator RIBICOFF. Let me ask you this, gentlemen: The charge has been made, and it has been pretty widespread, that the construction trades have been unwilling to allow minority groups and Negroes to become apprentices and to become skilled in the building trades.

This is one phase of the question.

The second is that the guidelines of the model cities program require that, to the fullest extent possible, there should be encouragement and utilization of the minority groups or people living in the slums to receive employment in the reconstruction and rehabilitation of the slums.

Now, I would like comment from you gentlemen concerning the charge of discrimination by the unions in apprenticeship training, and also your reaction to the advisability or feasibility of bringing in slumdwellers to work on construction projects.

UNIONS WOULD EMPLOY SLUMDWELLERS ON CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS

Mr. HAGGERTY. Well, Senator, I think if this were done in an organized manner between the-of it is a contractor-so far, we have no contractor that I know of, no prime contractor on this instant rehabilitation of the cities, but if this were a matter of organization and planning, it would not be too difficult. A lot of the work being done, I suppose, on rehabilitation, would mean the gutting out of the structures' interiors, and thereby making unsafe places until you have them made safe.

Where the individual himself wanted to work along these lines, why, I am sure the international unions which are represented here this morning will do everything in their power to see that these people are employed.

Every one of these presidents here this morning, and others who are not here, have signed with the President of the United States in agreement that they would prohibit and not permit discrimination within the ranks of their members. These people could very well, if they would apply-I do not know what it is dong now in New York and Philadelphia, where the instant rehabilitation program is underway, as far as I know-but if they had a program designed so these men could be employed in an intelligent manner and a safe manner, I am sure that they would be.

ISSUE OF DISCRIMINATION IN APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING PROGRAMS

Senator RIBICOFF. How about the other part of the question, the accusation that there is a discrimination in the apprenticeship training program against Negroes?

Mr. HAGGERTY. I mentioned in my statement a report by a professor from Michigan. He has a statement-if I can find it here that he makes with respect to his report in printed form. I did not bring it with me, I do not believe.

Senator RIBICOFF. Would this be the "Statistical Analysis of Apprenticeship Information Centers Activities”?

Mr. HAGGERTY. No, that one is from the Department of Labor. This one is a report this is a report to the Office of Manpower Policy, Evaluation and Research of the Manpower Administration, U.S. Department of Labor, by Prof. F. Ray Marshall, project director, and he points out that the construction industry is not the-it points out:

The Rodgers Committee also attempted to refer journeymen. A total of 494 individuals applied to the Committee for journeymen positions; 243 were rejected (57 because they were nonresidents; 54 because they had no construction experience; and 132 because they had no journeymen experience).

CONCLUSIONS OF THE RODGERS COMMITTEE

That is not the paragraph I wanted. I do not think that is the one I wanted, anyway. Yes, here it is.

The Rodgers Committee drew two important conclusions from its efforts. First, massive campaigns to recruit applicants can be a fruitless understaking: 498 (or 25 percent) of the applicants for apprentice and journeymen positions did not show up for the referral interview, and many others failed to apply once referred. Secondly, the committee came to the following critical conclusions on the preparation of the youths who appeared before it :

One of the greatest eye-openers to this Committee was the apparent abandoning of many youths in our school systems. Most of the committee was shocked that boys who were graduates of our vocational high schools or who had at least two years in these schools could not spell such words as "brick, carpenter, building," etc.

(Excerpts from the report referred to follow :)

EXHIBIT 208

NEGRO PARTICIPATION IN APPRENTICESHIP PROGRAMS

(A Report to the Office of Manpower Policy, Evaluation and Research, Manpower Administration, U.S. Department of Labor, in fulfillment of contract No. 81-46-66-01, F. Ray Marshall, project director, Vernon M. Briggs, Jr., associate project director, Department of Economics, the University of Texas, December 1966)

THE RODGERS COMMITTEE

On August 9, 1963, a special biracial committee was formed to screen and interview Negro and Puerto Rican applicants who believed themselves qualified for journeymen or apprentice status in the construction industry. Known as the Building Industry of New York City Referral Committee (or as the Rodgers Committee after its chairman), the six-man committee was appointed by Peter Brennan, President of the New York City Building and Construction Trades Council, who was an ex officio member of the Committee. The Committee interviewed and screened applicants referred to it by civil rights groups, the state Employment Service, the two special governmental recruitment programs discussed above, or by individuals through written application to a special post office box. The interviews were held at a downtown hotel, rather than in a

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