Mr. McDADE. What kind of financing, guaranteed loans? Mr. LUBAR. Yes. Mr. McDADE. Up to what dollar figure? Mr. KEARNEY. Insured loans. Mr. LUBAR. No dollar limit. We would expect it to be about $800 per bed or better. That is what are estimating, but in our personnel request we are asking for 100 people for that activity. NEED FOR AGGRESSIVE ROLE IN NURSING HOME DEVELOPMENT Mr. McDADE. I am delighted to hear that. I think that is very encouraging. I don't want to take a lot of time but I would urge you, as the man responsible for FHA activities, to consider whether there ought not to be immediately started a study to look at this issue, as you have the general housing problem, and whether or not there ought to be in your organization a team of people who are devoted exclusively to this problem. It is an enormous problem among the American elderly, and it is going to get even more critical I think as it goes along. I would hope that the FHA, with its resources, would really begin to be more aggressive, if you will, and not just sit back and say "If the market responds, it responds," but to try to figure out how we aggressively begin to lay the groundwork to try to solve some of this problem. Mr. TALCOTT. One thing, Mr. McDADE is saying to me is that we spend a lot of money on housing for the poor, while housing in nursing homes is one of the most urgent needs of a certain kind of poor, and we seem to do very little about it. You don't even consider yourselves the lead agency. Why couldn't you be just as aggressive in promoting programs to the Congress or doing things within your own Department for nursing homes as you have been for low-cost housing? Mr. KEARNEY. One of the provisions of the section 23 program allows construction of group congregate facilities which is one of the methods that many people believe is desirable for people who aren't in need of intensive medical care, but who aren't able to Mr. TALCOTT. I don't think Mr. McDade or anybody is saying you have done nothing. This is an enormous need that is getting greater and not enough is being done aggressively in this area, while you are so aggressive in other areas. Is there a difference between a convalescent and a nursing home? I know private developers who have made millions of dollars on convalescent homes, so there is a profit in these things. Mr. LUBAR. I think they are interchangeable. People think of one as being much like the other. ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSE LIMITATION Mr. BOLAND. Still referring to the green sheet on page G-9, for total permanent employment under administrative expense limitation for fiscal year 1974 you show 498, and the very last figure on the table, total average employment, is 643.5 for fiscal 1974. For fiscal 1975, the total permanent employment under the administrative expense limitation is 495, 3 less than 1974. Your average employment is 580.8 for fiscal year 1975. The permanent employment attributed to the FHA administrative expense limitation is substantially less than the average employment. Can you give an explanation for that? Mr. KLIMAN. Mr. Chairman, the figures you first pointed to, the permanent employment figures, are only the permanent full-time employees. In addition to permanent full-time employees, there are temporary employees. For instance, the Federal Housing Administration utilizes temporary employees as does the Office of Finance and Accounting, which includes the FHA comptroller's operation. The total average employment includes the man-years related both to the permanent full-time as well as to the temporary employees. Mr. BOLAND. Turning to the nonadministrative expense limitation, regarding page H-11, what are the revised levels in the budget amendment for permanent positions and average employment? Mr. KLIMAN. We have not had time, Mr. Chairman, to revise this particular green sheet. Mr. BOLAND. Supply that for the record. [The information follows:] |