Mr. HOLIFIELD. In other words, for shoes condemned to point of surplus, the Indian agency could not go in and pick them up without paying for them.

Mr. BUTLER. If transferred to us as excess, if they are not stock fund and if condition condemned, Indian agencies can come in and pick them up with no reimbursement.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. What position does GSA take in that respect? Do they make that decision?

Mr. BUTLER. No; the condition condemned classification is made locally.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Could GSA screen any of this material and allocate it to Indian agencies, let us say.

Mr. BUTLER. No, sir; GSA can screen our property and they can take property for their own use only, but they act as coordinator for us, and in the case of any property we may have which prisons or Indian agencies could use, we would notify them and they would come in to inspect property.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. I have been informed that Indian agencies could not participate. Do you know why that is?

Mr. BUTLER. Prisons and Indian agencies are suppose to be well screened.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Are they screened?

Mr. BUTLER. They are from this base.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. You would report to the Indian agency surplus you have, the same as to any other agency?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir. There is a screening of listings by three different Indian agencies and the headquarters for prisons.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Has there been any case where Indian agencies have requested any of this material?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALWN. When this Indian agency comes in and claim this, is that after being declared surplus or while still in excess?

Mr. BUTLER. After being declared surplus.

Mr. BALWAN. Not while excess?

Mr. BUTLER. They can obtain property in excess state through GSA, but to get on the plan which is called donation property, the property has to be declared surplus.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. We have a list of 139 Federal agencies who screen materials offered for sale. Do you have additional ones? I see only one Indian agency. There may be others that I have overlooked.

Mr. BUTLER. I believe there are two there-the new addition which Mr. Wilson gave us last week also has one representative from prisons in Arizona.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. I would suggest that the representative from GSA might want to say something at this time.

Mr. HULL. On the Indian agencies, they can pick up excess but they have to pay the price that is set according to condition of the item. If a scrap item, it is free. And they are picking it up continuously all through Arizona and Nevada. There is some question with regard to the Indian school, and I believe the schools cannot take property on donations at this time until excess or surplus.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. There is some question about the Indian school participating in the health and education setup. The schools cannot take

property on donation that is either excess or surplus. In other words they are being discriminated against. Is that right?

Mr. HULL. That is right.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. What is that? Is it a matter of basic law, or matter of regulation?

Mr. HULL. I understand it is a matter of basic law.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. They are not considered a local tax supported institution?

Mr. HULL. No, sir; I believe certain recommendations can go to Congress to correct that. The Carson City School, when I was there in November a year ago, was very much in need of typewriters but we could not give them to them.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. I think this is something the staff should look into and make different recommendations to the committee on internal and insular affairs.

Mr. HULL. We can give typewriters to the University of California but the Indian school has to pay a price set according to condition. Mr. HOLIFIELD. It doesn't seem fair to give Federal property to State institutions and withhold from a completely Federal supported school.

Mr. HULL. That is right.

Mr. BALWAN. After excess screening through DOD and lists go into GSA, then GSA can screen the Indian schools, can't they?

Mr. HULL. They do.

Mr. BALWAN. And give them property at the fair exchange value, and after property has been screened by GSA and placed in surplus to agencies of the Federal Government, and before 10 days, institutions can come in and claim donable property. Indian schools are excluded from that type of program?

Mr. HULL. Right.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Unless it is allocated to them while in GSA control. They are excluded during this 10-day period; however, they can still get it if they pay for it.

Mr. HULL. No, they have to ask for it when it becomes surplus because everyone already has had a crack at it.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. The advantage the University of California has is that they are given it for nothing, and the Indian school has to pay

for it.

Mr. BALWAN. The University of California is not screened by GSA-the University of California gets it after GSA has declared it excess to the need of the Federal Government and before Mr. Butler gets a chance to sell it. University of California comes in and looks to see whether it wants it.

Mr. HULL. They come in and tell Butler what they want as far as the State of California is concerned. It all goes into surplus property at Sacramento where it is allocated.

Mr. BUTLER. No individual school comes in and picks up what they

want.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. That is one of the loopholes we stopped. We made one officer in the State education system responsible for disposal so that they would keep schools from fighting each other. He allocates fairly, impartially. That individual comes in and claims what he feels he needs for the whole State.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. You have a man in the North and one in the South to take care of that.

Mr. BUTLER. The man from the southern area picks up a large enough quantity for all. He then contacts the man in the North, asking him if he can use any part of that.

Mr. BALWAN. Do you have data on that material with respect to the input and output?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir. Our individual report for our base shows that.

Mr. BALWAN. Could you read for the record to us how many pounds of material were sold?

Mr. BUTLER. For September, total receipts into surplus, 637,355 pounds.

Mr. BALWAN. That includes salable scrap and salvage and usable material?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALWAN. How much is salvage and usable material alone?

Mr. BUTLER. Salvage material alone was 637,000 pounds in September as received into surplus.

Mr. BALWAN. How much did you sell or get rid of?

Mr. BUTLER. The quantity sold during September was 185,755 pounds.

Mr. BALWAN. Then you are receiving more in September than you are selling. How was it in August?

Mr. BUTLER. There are other actions-I transferred- 172,199 to other agencies.

Mr. BALWAN. Can you give me the total figure for shipments for September?

Mr. BUTLER. I can work them up.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Better give us a breakdown for 3 or 4 months. It will give you an exact picture.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Before leaving this point in the discussion, I reiterate my lack of understanding of the conversion from dollar value into pounds. It seems to me you lose complete control of your percentage of recovery in terms of dollars. When you transfer from a dollar accountability to pounds it is like changing bananas into apples. The record of pounds and cents per pound would have no relationship to the acquisition cost in the transfer from dollar acquisition to pounds-you lose one trend and pick up another. It would be a great opportunity to confuse Congress or any other person as to what became of the dollar-and-pound relationship of reconciliation. I hope that we can get clear explanations as to why that method changed from dollars to pounds when we get to another base. Colonel Smith has assured me they will be made available. There may be a perfectly good reason for it. We want to know. I would appreciate your getting these questions on the record.

Mr. BALWAN. Could you explain exactly what a spot-bid sale is? Give us some indication of the success you are having.

Mr. BUTLER. The spot bid is a type of sale to expedite and cut down the cost of disposing of surplus property. It cuts paperwork approximately 50 percent.

Mr. BALWAN. How?

Mr. BUTLER. By comparison with sealed bids you will find that in the sealed-bid procedure two copies of the invitation have to be sent to the bidder. There is a deposit of 25 percent required on all items bid which necessitates paperwork, in addition to making up special forms to deposit into finance. Then there is paperwork after awarding of property. We create an additional amount prior to the delivery of any property. After delivery there are papers billing the man on what he received.

Mr. BALWAN. Don't you do all that anyway?

Mr. BUTLER. No, sir.

Mr. BALWAN. This spot bid is a regular bid. These invitations for bid are sent out to a selected list of prospective customers?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALWAN. Is the distribution of this invitation as wide as on a regular bid?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, if not larger.

Mr. BALWAN. Does the prospective bidder have to come in and look at this material?

Mr. BUTLER. He does not have to, but we always suggest that he do. Mr. BALWAN. He does have to mail to you this catalog with bids, and there is a certain day on which you open the bids. Is there any difference between that procedure and the regular sealed bid one?

Mr. BUTLER. There is not much didfference up to that point.

Mr. BALWAN. The advantage lies with the purchaser. He does not have to tie up his capital.

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALWAN. Isn't that the good point of merchandising?

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, the main point is that he does not have his capital tied up. We make the wards and get the material out.

Mr. BALWAN. You won't find this in the Army or Navy. This spot-bid sale is peculiar with the Air Force. It appears to be a good thing.