Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Just a sample-sometimes a sample out of one car and sometimes two.

The CHAIRMAN. You are just a broker?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir; I am a jobber, a carlot receiver. I handle 1,200 cars a year.

The CHAIRMAN. In financing your facilities, did you call on any Federal agency for help?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. When I bought-three of us bought back in 1928 for $200,000, and we invested $50,000 of our money.

The CHAIRMAN. You financed it with local capital?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. The man we purchased from gave us a mortgage for $150,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you had to refinanced with the RFC?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes; we refinanced. The man called our mortgage when it was $125,000, and the other two boys who were in with me took a walk, and it cost me just $68,000 of my money to refinance through RFC at $75,000. I paid them the $50,000 difference simply because it was the cheapest place to get the money. Anyhow, it cost me $68,000.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not have any objection to using the taxpayers' money when it was moving to you?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No, sir. But I gave security for that $75,000. I gave a first mortgage on my building and another one on my insurance policies.

The CHAIRMAN. But I say it was all right when Uncle Sam's money was being loaned to you in order for you to go ahead and do business at Dock Street, but now when we suggest loaning money to a public authority to establish a public market, it is wrong.

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I would be in favor of it, Mr. Cooley, if you would lend everyone money under this bill, if you thought it was necessary, and let them put up the same security I did.

The CHAIRMAN. The provisions of this bill leave that decision to the local people in the local community. We are not trying to force Federal money or Federal aid on anybody. This bill does not contemplate any sort of subsidy or grant. I understand there is a bill in the Senate, perhaps, that does contemplate some sort of grant to the municipality to encourage the building of marketing facilities, but this bill does not.

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. May I repeat to you that there is no need for Government financing of any facilities in Philadelphia.

The CHAIRMAN. Why did you go to the RFC to get the Government to finance you-because you got it from the RFC cheaper?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Let me tell you. It was during the depression, and I again repeat I took a $200,000 place and gave it to them for $75,000, gave them my life insurance, and I had some private stocks, and I gave them security against the loan. In this case, I tell you you will have a ghost market in a very, very short time, if you build it, and you cannot get people to go ahead and sign leases for space in this market facility.

The CHAIRMAN. If Philadelphia decides it does not want to improve its market facilities, you certainly do not have any objection to New York's providing itself with modern facilities; do you?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. I think it would be almost impossible if the same situation exists in New York. I am not too familiar, but I have a

slight idea of the New York situation, and they have the same facilities that Jersey City and other cities provide.

The CHAIRMAN. They have the same facilities today that they had 100 years ago?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No. Right on West Street they have piers 28 and 29. I do not know how many cars of produce they can unload in that terminal and sell from that terminal, but they can deliver there to the terminals.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, what you mean to say is that the Washington Street market does not operate like the Dock Street market?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. No. They do not have but very little terminal business. We do our business at the terminal; therefore we have the finest facilities in the Nation.

The CHAIRMAN. But are not you willing to leave it to the people of Philadelphia to determine for themselves whether or not they need this market facility?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Yes, sir. I would be willing if Uncle Sam's money could be protected and everyone would be put on a sound basis, if they would sign a lease. But then I would say again that you are only building something that absolutely will be a ghost, that the farmers and the consumers will use and a little business will start

The CHAIRMAN. Now wait a minute. You are talking two ways about this thing. You first said it would make a ghost town out of Dock Street, and now you are going to build a ghost town.

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. You are going to have a division of the market. The CHAIRMAN. Actually, what you are afraid of is, if we build a market facility that is easily accessible to trucks and trains in a welllocated place near the city of Philadelphia, it will take business away from Dock Street.

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Unfortunately, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, why will it take business away from Dock Street, if Dock Street is so efficient?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Wait a minute now. The reason they would go there is because there would be this division.

The CHAIRMAN. And they would get better service to transact their business, would they not?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. There is no better service, Mr. Cooley, than we have at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, Dock Street is all right?

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. And Pennsylvania Street is still better.

The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions? If not we thank you, Mr. Goldstein.

Mr. GOLDSTEIN. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF EMERSON CUSTIS, PHILADELPHIA, PA.

The CHAIRMAN. We have some other witnesses here from Philadelphia. Mr. Custis, will you introduce them?

Mr. CUSTIS. For the record my name is Emerson Custis. I had prepared and had just run off a little statement which I was going to introduce in the record, and then just present the gentlemen here who will speak for themselves.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. CUSTIS. In view of Mr. Goldstein's statement I would like to come back, if we have the time, either today or later to refute a lot of the statements that have been made. There were several others here: One was the B. & O. terminal agent, and others but some of them had to go.

The CHAIRMAN. We can hear from you later. Suppose you present the other witness if you are acquainted with them.

STATEMENT OF MAX FELDBAUM

Mr. CUSTIS. First is Mr. Max Feldbaum.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad to hear Mr. Feldbaum.

Mr. FELDBAUM. Gentlemen, I am not much of a speaker. I have been working and conducting a produce business for several years and I know the produce business from A to Z. I am working with my son. We handle from 2,000 to 2,500 cars a year, and we could handle a lot more, but one of the reasons is that in the later years they are not shipping as many fresh vegetables, fresh peas, for instance, as they did before, because there are more frozen goods and more canned goods. That is the reason we are not moving as much. But we are selling more lettuce and we are selling more carrots and we are selling now a lot of tomatoes.

I am here to tell you just what is right. I have no selfish motives; I do not own any real estate, and I am speaking for myself.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not own any real estate?

Mr. FELDBAUM. I do not own any real estate. I do not blame the fellow who owns real estate, the fellow who has his money invested in real estate, and I perhaps would feel the same way as he does. But let us call a spade a spade. I get up at 5 o'clock in the morning. I got up this morning at about 2:30 and I went down to Dock Street. My business, practically all of it, perhaps 99 percent of my merchandise is shipped on the Pennsylvania Railroad. I do not like any truck business; I handle everything in cars. We have facilities on the Pennsylvania Railroad where the men will come in and take samples, take 10 packages, for instance, that are put on the Pennsylvania Railroad platform. The buyers come there and the samples are furnished to them; and they are given these tickets and get on the cars and then we have checkers to show them the merchandise.

Now with reference to Dock Street, if you put in a new produce terminal, and take it away from Dock Street, Dock Street would not be worth two cents.

First of all you do not have the facilities at Dock Street for trucks to come in. They cannot back in because the area is so congested. Another thing, they do not have the facilities where they can back up against the platform. I have seen a fellow who had three crates of lettuce, on Dock Street, shoving it around, because of the crowded conditions.

As I say, we do not ship by truck. We have everything shipped by rail. We do not have any big trailer trucks.

We have jobbers who buy their product at this market, and we have big trailer trucks coming in there from every State, moving into Dock Street. That is why we have so much congestion.

As I say, I do not have any selfish motive myself, or anything like that, but I think the best thing would be for us to have car lot receiving; I think that would be helpful to everyone.

The CHAIRMAN. If we were to pass this legislation, you think the people of Philadelphia and other communities in this country could decide for themselves whether they want to avail themselves of the privilege of obtaining a loan to build facilities?

Mr. FELDBAUM. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not think that is a fair proposition?
Mr. FELDBAUM. It is a fair proposition.

The CHAIRMAN. To let the people of Philadelphia determine for themselves whether or not they want to exercise this privilege?

Mr. FELDBAUM. That is right. And I want to be fair. I think it would be only right to take care of the fellow who has facilities, who has been in business there; I think that the Government should try to buy them out, or do something about it. I do not have any real estate myself.

The CHAIRMAN. Just in connection with the statement you made about Dock Street, that the property would not be worth anything: The property would still be valuable, would it not?

Mr. FELDBAUM. A $250,000 piece of property would not be worth more than $30,000.

The CHAIRMAN. It would not be for a market, you mean, but it would be valuable for some other purpose?

Mr. FELDBAUM. Perhaps.

The CHAIRMAN. It would be valuable for an office building or for modern stores. It could be used for other things, could it not? Mr. FELDBAUM. But not for rent. The CHAIRMAN. You are renting now?

Mr. FELDBAUM. Yes. Something was said about $200 to $225 a month, and others at $400 to $500, and some are paying $600 down there. Mr. Goldstein was talking about Pennsylvania Street.

The CHAIRMAN. A lot of people are paying $400 to $500?

Mr. FELDBAUM. Yes. I pay $160 for an office, a hole in a wall. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you do not have much room for operating your business. If it were put at a different location and modern facilities were made available where you could unload the produce on a platform and perhaps trucks could be used, you think it would be better?

Mr. FELDBAUM. That is right. I would like to see a produce terminal, one that could be available to everybody, where they could have upstairs facilities, room for packages, a place for loading, refrigeration, and things like that.

Mr. GRANGER. As I understand, you are a broker?

Mr. FELDBAUM. I am a fruit and produce commission man. Seventy five percent of my business is on consignment. During the last week or 10 days I bought 75 cars of tomatoes and I sold them all, most of them in 4 or 5 days.

Mr. GRANGER. In the business you perform you do not need any terminal market, do you?

Mr. FELDBAUM. Yes. In my business I need a terminal market. I sell to the chain stores, to the A. & P.-and the chains only come to us when they do not have supplies of their own; they come to us to fill in and they buy from us; they do not ordinarily buy through us, but when they come I usually fix them right.

Mr. GRANGER. How much commission do you get?

DEVELOPMENT OF TERMINAL MARKETING FACILITIES

31

Mr. HILL. That is true in every case. That applies to San Francisco; that applies to Cleveland; it applies to Denver.

The CHAIRMAN. That is right.

Mr. HILL. So your problem down in Virginia is no different from our problem in Denver?

The CHAIRMAN. That is the reason I take the position that this should be handled at the Federal level. For instance, your markets at Philadelphia, Baltimore, New York, and Boston likewise extend beyond State lines.

Mr. HILL. But you would not favor that the Federal Government should control all of the elements of marketing.

The CHAIRMAN. There is nothing like that in this bill. This bill only provides that the market facility itself, the physical property, shall be in such shape as to meet the reasonable requirements of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. HILL. Let me ask this: Does not this bill provide, if I read it correctly, that the Secretary of Agriculture can make all of the rules and regulations in regard to the operation of the market, if they put this loan on it?

The CHAIRMAN. Rules and regulations for the operation of the market?

Mr. HILL. Sure. He can direct everything concerning the market, if he puts a loan on there.

The CHAIRMAN. What provision is that?

Mr. HILL. There are some references made on pages 9 and 10.

Dr. MAXTON. I would say that once the Federal Government sets up the sound fiscal policy to see the funds it has loaned are properly spent, and that the chances for revenue are good, that the Federal Government is liable to remain.

The CHAIRMAN. Section 10 on page 14 provides that the Secretary may make a loan from the loan fund if he finds that a borrower cannot obtain funds from a source other than the Federal Government.

The answer, of course, is that there is no purpose to try to regulate the operation of markets.

We thank you very much, Dr. Maxton.

The committee will now take a recess until 2 o'clock.

(At 12:01 p. m. a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

I understand Mr. K. R. Slamp, representing the National Association of Marketing Officials, is scheduled to leave the city pretty early this afternoon.

We would be glad to hear from you now, Mr. Slamp.

STATEMENT OF K. R. SLAMP, REPRESENTING NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MARKETING OFFICIALS

Mr. SLAMP. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to explain that the House has just had a roll call, and that is the reason that the Members are not present at the moment. I am sure, however, that some of them will come in in a few minutes.