committee, but still I do not think he has had a clear picture of actual operation in the market.

I think all this talk about a modern new market and wide streets is all right until you get into actual operations; and I do not think that the Government should stick itself out on a limb and give money out for something that they are not too positive is going to operate on a paying basis. Forty years is a long time.

As Mr. Custis has said, he has 146 members who are all ready to sign up leases for new stores. I am willing to bet that that is not an accurate figure, because there are a lot more owners that I know personally that are of my opinion and are not for Mr. Custis' idea the way he has presented it.

Now, gentlemen, there are lots of times when a fellow will come up with a good idea, but the manner in which he introduces it to the public, or to you, as the Congress, considering the bill, does not present it what you would call a straightforward, straight fact proposition. I think that not only in Philadelphia, but in New York and other places, there must be a reason why there is a lack of personal initiative among businessmen, investment companies, and other firms. What is the reason they will not go into this thing? There must be an answer to that. Yet the people are coming down here and saying, "Why, we think this bill will give us a free hand-out."

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you use that expression, "free hand-out"? There is nothing in this bill that authorizes a free hand-out.

Mr. LEONARD. I am trying to put in my own words. I am not trying to say you are actually, as a Government agency, handing out the money.

The CHAIRMAN. You have just been criticising Mr. Custis about not being forthright and fair, and then you say that the purpose of this bill is to have a direct hand-out.

If you can show me any section in this bill that authorizes a free hand-out, I would like to know it, and we will strike it out.

Mr. LEONARD. It is not a Federal handout. I am asking you a question. I am here to learn, too. I am a private citizen and trying to learn.

Why is it that private capital and private initiative do not do that? The CHAIRMAN. Why do you not answer that? You have been in the business for 60 years.

Mr. LEONARD. You just had a witness, Mr. Frost, who told you about his next door neighbor who improved his facilities and modernized his facilities. I have done that. I have iceboxes and material at hand on my property at a cheaper rate.

The CHAIRMAN. And you own your own building?

Mr. LEONARD. That is right. And that is the only property I own on Dock Street. I am not one of these big landlords that you are talking about that is making these high rents.

While I am on the rent subject, Mr. Chairman, why is it that there is a store vacant on Dock Street, of which there are few, and when a price is asked for that store, people grab for it? They have five or six people for it. That is real estate business. If there is a demand for something, they are going to get the price.

The CHAIRMAN. Is your store accessible to railroads?

Mr. LEONARD. No, sir; it is not.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is not very readily accessible to trucks?

Mr. LEONARD. You brought up the railroad proposition. On this witness stand you have had fellows who are primarily what is called a carlot receiver. I am known in Philadelphia as a local commission merchant and jobber. All the merchandise I receive from farmers is local merchandise and received only by truck in the Dock Street area. You have not had that phase up here presented to you.

The CHAIRMAN. You mentioned the fact that you thought that this matter should be considered and studied further by this committee. Did you know that this committee has been considereing this matter for 5 or 6 years?

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, I know the complete history.

The CHAIRMAN. And that every Congress has authorized the committee to conduct investigations in all parts of the country?

Mr. LEONARD. I understand that.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know that a subcommittee of this committee visited the Dock Street market and other docks in the country? Mr. LEONARD. May I ask this, sir: Did you come to an association we have up there, what we call a market management group, a jobbers association, and come to us as directors-of which I am a member, elected by those people on the street-and ask us the problems we have with the individual merchants, whether he rents or whether he owns a store? And also, did you ask us why all these things happen? The CHAIRMAN. We did that as far back as 5 years ago, in 1945. Mr. LEONARD. By whom?

The CHAIRMAN. The subcommittee went to Philadelphia for the purpose of making the study that you are talking about.

Mr. LEONARD. As far as I know, it did not.

The CHAIRMAN. It met with the officials and then with the operators. Mr. LEONARD. Of all the associations?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know whether they met with your organization or not. I know they went to New York; they went to Mayor LaGuardia and his marketing commissioner, and the operators. They even had conferences with the labor leaders that operated all these facilities. The committee has been studying this subject quite long enough to know something about it.

Mr. LEONARD. All right. To get along on what I would like to say about the labor thing-I am glad you brought that up-if this bill was passed and the city of Philadelphia or any other city could use these facilities to help them improve their market, what effect is labor going to impose on our industry when we in turn cut out three or four hundred people from their jobs? Are they going to adjudge to us, as operators, a higher tariff for salesmen and our other operating expenses, to balance off what they lose?

I am trying to show you in my own words-I may not be too clear— whether, if we had this new market, we are going to cut out expenses of handling.

For instance, the trucking from the terminal market to Dock Street; you are going to save that expense. But are you going to still have a bigger labor overhead down there that is imposed on you, in order to try to take up what they lose, that is, three or four hundred men? That is putting out 125 or 150 truckers out of business when you move that terminal.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you admit that those truckers would not be necessary if you establish modern facilities?

Mr. LEONARD. Yes, I would admit it.

But I am asking you: What effect is that going to have on the labor picture?

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you think that we should maintain the inadequate system so as to keep the people in their jobs?

Mr. LEONARD. No; I do not maintain that. I am not saying that. We are trying here to create a bill to reduce the cost of distribution, and if this bill is the answer to the problem, is it going to create that, or are we going to have just as much costs when we move down there as we had in the original place?

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you not let Philadelphia decide that question for itself?

Mr. LEONARD. It is not only a Philadelphia problem. Labor is Nation-wide.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand. But if we authorize the granting of these loans, and Philadelphia does not want the loan, it certainly will not get the loan, and Philadelphia can continue to operate its inadequate and antiquated facilities, if you are able to prevail upon the people of Philadelphia that they ought to maintain that inadequate facility to keep these people in jobs.

But, what we want to do is to free our system from all parasites and all people who are preying on the public. They ought to be removed.

Mr. LEONARD. That is what I am trying to bring out. going to do that by creating that market?

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we intend to do.

Are we

Mr. LEONARD. Do you feel that it is going to do that? You are still going to have the police administration. It is local, of course, it does not interest you, but we are figuring this out as businessmen, with regard to what we have to contend with.

Are we going to be able to control traffic without a cop? If not, are we going to have to pay them graft?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you do it?

Mr. LEONARD. No, I do not do it personally, but it is being done. The CHAIRMAN. You mean that the police officers of the city of Philadelphia are engaged in that sort of racket where they are being paid by merchants?

Mr. LEONARD. I cannot actually prove it, but still it goes on.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you make a statement of that kind that involves the moral turpitude of the police force of Philadelphia, unless you have something to substantiate it?

Mr. LEONARD. Maybe I am out on a limb, but I know it goes on. We know that it is done all over the country, and not only on Dock Street.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever report it to the police authorities? Mr. LEONARD. It does not do any good.

The CHAIRMAN. So the whole outfit is corrupt?

Mr. LEONARD. No; I did not say that.

The CHAIRMAN. What part is corrupt?

Mr. LEONARD. Look, as a market manager in a new market, you have this new setup that Mr. Custis has presented, and presented well. I am not down on Mr. Custis, but I am trying to figure out in my mind if it is going to correct the present inadequate system.

The CHAIRMAN. Why do you say that "Mr. Custis has presented"? This committee has been working on this subject for 6 years. We have had men from every part of the country helping us on this

matter.

Mr. LEONARD. From what I have heard and what other people tell me, Mr. Custis has had much to do with this.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Custis has been helpful to the committee. Mr. LEONARD. Well, I am trying to tell you our side, and why we are here.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. LEONARD. Say that we have got a new market down there and you have got truck congestion that comes in there. Now, you have a receiver. Say that I am a particular truck receiver and I know I have 25 truckloads of merchandise coming in to the market. Is this new set-up with a front and rear entrance and a team track and things like that going to stop that sort of congestion, when I have a certain number of hours to unload that stuff and have to get it unloaded?

The CHAIRMAN. What you are saying now is that you cannot handle perishable commodities with greater dispatch in a modern constructed market than they are now being handled in the old way? Mr. LEONARD. All right. Let me get back to this point.

The idea of this meeting here is to find out whether it is going to actually save by changing over to this modern set-up; that is, whether it is going to prove an economy in the distribution of fruits and vegetables. That is what I am trying to bring out. Is this new

set-up going to improve it any more than what we have? We do not think so. It may, to a certain extent. You are still going to have that cost of distribution. You are not making it any cheaper for the consumer and you are not making it any higher for the farmer because you still have those costs that you have to contend with in these terminal set-ups.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean that where it is costing now, according to Mr. Crow's testimony, about $110 a car to handle the vegetables that go into the New York market, that the $110 is still going to be a fixed charge, even in a modern market that is easily accessible to train and truck transportation?

Mr. LEONARD. You have a new modern market with a new set-up. It may not cost $110, but the man is still going to do a lot of handling with it. He will still have to have a man take it out of the car, and according to the drawings I have seen of Mr. Custis', somebody has to put it in the elevator and run it over to the store. Somebody has to pay for those costs when you form this company.

Now, are all those costs going to derive and come into our rents? On the new set-up, a fellow says, "I cannot bring that stuff from the car and do it cheaper."

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that if a modern market is built in Philadelphia, you do not have to move; you can still do your business where you have been doing it for 60 years.

Mr. LEONARD. I understand that.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you complaining about?

Mr. LEONARD. I am talking mainly on the point I am trying to bring out to you. I do not think that the bill, as written and presented, is

going to help cheapen the cost of distribution of fresh fruit and vegetables.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. We have your opinion on that, now. Now, let us get an opinion on something else.

Mr. LEONARD. Thank you for the hearing, Mr. Chairman. Are there any questions?

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions by any member of the committee?

If not, we thank you very much for your statement.

Mr. LEONARD. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other gentleman that has to get away this afternoon?

Mr. OMERBERG. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, sir; will you please give us your name for the record?

STATEMENT OF J. J. OMERBERG, PARKERSBURG, W. VA.

Mr. OMERBERG. Mr. Chairman, my name is J. J. Omerberg, of Parkersburg, W. Va.

I am a member of the Wood County court, probably better known to most of you gentlemen as the county commissioners.

We are vitally interested in promoting a market place which will bring the producer and the consumer together. We do not, as Mr. Johnston said, have any market within a radius of 100 miles. Pittsburgh is 160 miles to the north and Cincinnati is 200 miles to the west. In between there, there is no market facility for the wholesale and retail purchase of the farmers' products.

We have in Wood County a pice of ground of approximately 20 acres that we are willing to donate to the farmers' market. We do not have the finances, but we are working hand-in-hand with the Department of Agriculture of the State of West Virginia.

We are situated on four trunk lines, East, West, North, and South; national highways. We are on the main line of the Baltimore and Ohio, also running north and south, east and west, and our piece of ground is within a thousand feet of the B. & O. tracks, so it will be very simple to run a spur over there should we need it.

As I say, we are very much interested in helping the producer in both Ohio and West Virginia. We will service about 15 counties which will sell approximately 20,000 farmers, and will go a long way to reduce the cost to the ultimate consumer, by having a local wholesale market.

The CHAIRMAN. In view of the fact that you do not have adequate marketing facilities in Parkersburg, I imagine there is a lot of produce that is shipped from that area to some of the central markets and shipped right back in there for consumption; is that right?

Mr. OMERBERG. That is right. The truckers come along and pick up a little dab here and there and haul it 150 miles and one of the local merchants will order something, and it will come right back in there, and that has increased the cost. There has been a good deal of waste produce because of there not being a market. We can serve approximately a third of a million people in that 75-mile radius if