Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, by coincidence, it happens that I received a letter yesterday from the chairman of the board of regents of the University Systems of Georgia, stating that they had been to see Mr. Webb, representing the University Systems of Georgia, and had discussed the possibility of having a conference with appropriate officials looking toward the industrial development of the area from which I come.

Now, I notice, as I look at this, and I may say that I saw it for the first time yesterday morning, and I had no idea that this particular item in the budget would be coming up at this same time, but I do have certain questions that I would like to ask you.

In that particular letter. I gather that the board of regents had invited some members of NASA to just come to Georgia to confer with them, and with others, but nowhere would there be any expense to the Government.

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir

Mr. Davis. The entire expense was to be borne by the State of Georgia.

Dr. SIMPSON. No, sir

Mr. DAVIS. Therefore, I was wondering, are any of these funds set up for such things as going out and conferring with people, are all of these funds set up for such things as studies, or perhaps engaging in a contract leading to competitive bid surveys, or things of that kind? Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir. All of the $3.5 million is spent out of house. Mr. DAVIS. Out of house?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. None of that is for transportation of personnel, to confer with people, or anything like that?

Dr. SIMPSON. No, sir.

It would go out on contract, or grant. There would be certain travel in connection with the work being done by these people to whom we contract, or who are taking the grants but this would not be NASA travel funds. NASA travel funds are accounted for on another basis, and I am sure that these are kept separate in the agency, entirely-always. I think that these travel funds are in perhaps the operation of installations, but I would not want to commit myself on the record at this time.

Mr. DAVIS. I have noticed that there is one item on the second page, the middle of the page-the last item: "Innovation, identification, and dissemination activities," which is, among other things, for conferences, exhibits, and seminars?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, is that a travel expense?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes other than travel for NASA personnel. It might, on certain occasions, involve travel of participants outside of NASA, or something of this nature.

Mr. DAVIS. I see.

Dr. SIMPSON. But it may very well end up as a contract for someone to build an exhibit for us, and that would mean that they would charge the travel expenses against it. But this would not include any NASA personnel travel expenses.

Mr. DAVIS. I understood you to say, however, that all of this $3.5 million was to be spent out of house!

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. All of it?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. And would all of it, you say, be spent by contract, or would some of it be set up for a certain study that you might want made?

Dr. SIMPSON. A grant, an unsolicited grant.

ir. DAVIS. Well, I suppose that is what it would be.

Dr. SIMPSON. An unsolicited proposal for which you might make a grant.

Mr. DAVIS. That is what I had in mind, anyway.

How much of that would be for such things as unsolicited grants? Dr. SIMPSON. Well, I would say the bulk of this, as it now stands, would go out on a contract basis--the larger part of it.

Mr. DAVIS. Something over 50 percent?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir. I would say certainly nearer 75 percent, or

even more.

NASA, as you know, does make grants through other offices, and they have an office to take care of this called the Office of Grants and Research Contracts but these are large grants which are made to universities, essentially.

Now, if we wanted to accomplish a particular job with a university, we could use some of those funds on a grant basis through the proper channels, and those funds would be contracted out in that connection. Mr. DAVIS. Would you give us a word or two on your background, Dr. Simpson? Have you had any experience in fields such as this? Dr. SIMPSON. Well, sir, I will leave that to you. I guess my background is as a sociologist, trained at the University of North Carolina, in regional studies and development. I spent 2 years in South Carolina studying the history of the Coker family-you may know of the Coker 100.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, I have heard of it.

Dr. SIMPSON. Wherein I first learned of the overwhelming influence of science coming into an undeveloped place and the opportunities for science to work in a variety of ways. But I won't elaborate on that

now.

I then went back to the university in Chapel Hill, in 1950, where I was teaching.

Then in the middle of the fifties, Governor Hodges, and the business and industrial people of the State, asked me to take leave to become executive director of what was then known as the Research Triangle undertaking. This was an effort to build around the university in Chapel Hill, Duke University, and the State college, a concentration of the outgrowth of science of all types, industrial and governmental and so on, and quite similar to what is now going on in Pittsburgh and in Oakland, Calif.

I expect that will happen in Georgia, too.

Well, we had some success with this. I spent about 2 years, full time, and another year or 2 years, part time. I think it was on this basis, because so much of this work seems to develop into this kind of pattern rather than from a purely technical point of view, that Mr. Webb asked me to take this program over.

Mr. HECHLER. Mr. Chairman, if the gentlemen of the subcommittee would allow me, I would like to comment on Dr. Simpson's remark"We had some success"-I believe that is somewhat of an understatement, because the program under Governor Hodges in North Carolina, was tremendously successful.

I would just like to underline the role which Dr. Simpson played in developing the program of research in the Research Triangle under Governor Hodges.

Mr. DAVIS. Now, I would like to ask another question, or two on this philosophy of the particular program that you have.

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. Davis. What is your view as to the mission of your program, with reference to the geographical areas of the United States!

Do you conceive that it is your function to, for example, prevent an exodus of personnel from one area to another, or to hold men where they are? What is your philosophy in that connection?

Dr. SIMPSON. Our philosophy is that we want to give the fullest opportunity to every region in the country, insofar as it is consistent with NASA's program and resources, to help itself and to gain the benefits of world science and technology.

We cannot, I think, properly say that we want to keep people in one place or take them to another, but I think we properly can, and we do, want to respond to the interests of local people and the requests of people from all regions.

I would have no hesitation in saying that I think it is proper that we do not go out and beat up trade in the regions that are "have not" in this area, but we do encourage people from the "have not" areas technologically and scientifically. I may say that this today is not only in the South, or in parts of the West, but it is also in the industrial Midwest to a very considerable degree, and we are working as much there as we are anywhere else. We cannot discriminate as we do want to give every region its fullest possible cooperation.

Mr. DAVIS. Well then, I would like to ask if you regard it as being your function, not to take the initiative, but to respond with such help as you may be called upon to give.

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. In the way of information and techniques that may have been developed by NASA-is that correct!

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir; that is true.

I think that I would want to be entirely candid with the subcommittee and say that while we do not take the initiative in the sense that we go out and pull people in, we do state the case as to why we think regions should interest themselves in these matters, positively,

on every occasion.

Mr. DAVIS. Of course, you don't run up against any dearth of interest in any area in respect to self-improvement, I don't suppose. Dr. SIMPSON. No, sir, our problem comes, quite frankly, back to what we were discussing previously. We are doing certain things around the country, such as with Indiana University and the Midwest Research Institute. We would hope to get started under appropriate cir umstances and in seeing this down the road far enough to where the local interests can take this thing up on a substantial basis for the long run.

This is our real problem, frankly.

Mr. DAVIS. How much money was spent in this program, Doctor, or will be spent during the current fiscal year. I know that carries it a little further down the road than we are at this point.

Dr. SIMPSON. Well the total here sir, is $3,760,000 of which 2

Mr. DAVIS. I didn't follow. I thought there were three columns of figures there.

Dr. SIMPSON. Oh, I am sorry sir. They are the years 1962, 1963, and

1964.

Mr. DAVIS. 1962, 1963, and 1964?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

In effect, what we are asking in terms of research and development funds is for a little more than a million dollars, additional, in 1964, and the other increases come with reference to personnel and operations.

Mr. DAVIS. In these previous 2 years were these budgeted items? Dr. SIMPSON. I am sure they were, sir-I wasn't here, so I can't be entirely certain.

Mr. DAVIS. Have any of the gentlemen with you any idea as to that? Dr. SIMPSON. I believe they were included under the program funds; yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. The reason I am asking you this is that NASA has the capability of reprograming funds and I just wondered if these were budgeted items.

Dr. SIMPSON. It may be, sir. In the last year these funds were in the Authorization of Office of Applications which included meteorological satellites and communications satellites. This function, just in the last 2 or 3 months, actually has been moved from that office.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, it is entirely possible for the record, then, that one could say that they were included in other programs they were a category of other programs?

Dr. SIMPSON. Let me just confirm this, if I may.

Mr. DAVIS. Oh, yes; certainly.

I just wanted to know if you could indicate if this was a cost included as part of the other programs.

Mr. TEPLITZ. My name is Jerome E. Teplitz, Office of Technology Utilization, NASA, and I believe that these were identified separately. Mr. Davis. It doesn't refer to a program you see it doesn't show that.

Mr. TEPLITZ. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. In 1962.

Mr. TEPLITZ. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Would you repeat that answer, please. You say it

was

Mr. TEPLITZ. Well, these funds were included within those applications. It covered the communication satellites and meteorological satellites programs which included "Industrial applications." (The information requested is as follows:)

This subject was discussed in both Senate and House 1963 NASA authorization hearings.

Hearings before the Committtee on Aeronautical and Space Sciences, U.S. Senate, page 723.

Hearing before the Subcommittee on Applications and Tracking and Data Acquisition of the Committee on Science and Astronautics, U.S. House of Representatives, pages 2086, 2087.

Mr. Davis. Well, was that thought of as a program at that time! Dr. SIMPSON. It was part of the Office of Applications. The program was part of an office called Office of Applications and it was a part of that Office.

Mr. TEPLITZ. It was organized as a separate part of the Office of Applications.

Mr. Davis. And you now think of it as a program in and of itself, do you not?

Dr. SIMPSON. I don't believe so; not in the sense of the manned space flight of space sciences program, no sir.

We think of it as a program but not of that order of size or anything of that nature.

I must say, however, we think of it as an increasingly important part of the general context of things.

Mr. DAVIS. Now, referring to this first paragraph, and all the figures that you have furnished to us, would you give us a brief summary of the meaning of the three categories, "Technology utilization, direct research, and development. costs," to begin with?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir. Well those refer to work we have done out of house and this is illustrated and indicated pretty well on the last page, I believe.

These are contracts and in some cases grants which we will execute to help identify potential applications or to help attract the interest of those people who may use them. That is what I referred to earlier and that is the first item there.

Mr. DAVIS. And what personnel costs are covered?

Dr. SIMPSON. These are costs of personnel involved in the NASA in-house effort.

Mr. DAVIS. You mean that is NASA personnel?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Part of installations, is that what you mean?

Dr. SIMPSON. Well really that is an accounting figure of the cost of the overhead that has been allocated.

Mr. Davis, Chargeable?

Dr. SIMPSON, Chargeable to this operation. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. As a matter of bookkeeping, you mean?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. Would any of the funds in this program go to pay the salaries of professors or anything like that in any of the universities! Dr. SIMPSON. It could, yes, sir. We do have work at the universities. Mr. DAVIS. Under what mechanism would that take place?

Dr. SIMPSON. Well, that would normally go as a grant to the university to carry on a given piece of work for us, and that would be administered in the normal way, under our grants to the university's administrative procedure, but the reports would come to us for review. In other words, we would be the reviewing office in NASA, and the office that would pass on the results.

Mr. DAVIS. You are aware that the National Science Foundation awards a number of fellowships, are you not?

Dr. SIMPSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVIS. And has quite a number of studies done. Have you checked to see if there is any redundancy in the work that you are doing, and the work that they are doing?