Mr. KARTH. Just one further exploratory question; doesn't the organic act establish NASA as the real research agency of the Government? Isn't this correct?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. This is correct.

Mr. KARTH. The basic research agency.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. This is our understanding, yes, sir.

Mr. KARTH. I see four or five supersonic transport designs on the table before you. What do you call these models?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. These, sir, are concepts that have been developed in our wind tunnels as a result of a great deal of study and model testing.

Now this machine is known by our people at the laboratory at Langley as SCAT-15, supersonic commercial air transport-model 15. It is the 15th configuration that they had tested.

This model is SCAT-17 and was developed at the Ames Laboratory. This other model is SCAT-4, developed at Langley, and SCAT-16. Those are model numbers.

Now when we say what we have done is with our general knowledge of the requirements of a transport and our general knowledge of the problems of aerodynamics and propulsion, we have worked up windtunnel conditions to test out our ideas and to try to arrive at an efficient design.

Mr. KARTH. Can we say that NASA has four designs for different supersonic air transport airplanes?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We can say, of the 17 or more configurations that we have investigated, the 4 that appear to be most promising on the basis of the aerodynamics and propulsion configurations are these 4 here.

Now, we are not designers, as such, and we know that when these machines are converted into actual practical aircraft they are going to be changed somewhat.

Mr. KARTH. Well, who came up with the 17 different concepts that NASA has tested and concluded that 4 are better than the other 13? Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Primarily, NASA personnel, although you realize we are in contact with the rest of the aeronautical community so that some of these ideas, for example-this aircraft is very similar to the B-70 in a general sort of way. On the other hand, the basic ideas in the B-70 came from NASA in some cases, so it is a back and forth interchange sort of thing.

Mr. KARTH. But that is a design, isn't it?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. This is, I would say, an aerodynamic configuration that represents our wind-tunnel people's impression or conception of what a supersonic transport could be like.

Mr. KARTH. That is a step beyond design, isn't it? Doesn't design come first and then configuration?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Well, it's a matter of degree.

One might arrive at this configuration on the basis that one needs an efficient wing and needs a canard tail and tail surfaces back here. That would be a configuration.

Then when we go to-we have to add propulsion to it so then it begins to take on some of the aspects of a complete aircraft. You are combining the propulsion so it begins to take on a design. Then our people look at it and say, well, when the manufacturer builds it, he is going to want to put six people abreast in here so we can't just have a narrow fuselage, just a spindle. We have got to represent a practical body. So, we represent a body that's about the right dimensions for a final aircraft. When we do this, we try to arrive at the right outside configuration but we don't do all the detail design and make sure the landing gear is going to fit right and all that sort of thing. Mr. KARTH. I understand that.

So you could call this preliminary design.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. In a sense, this is.

Mr. KARTH. Then we turn this over to some manufacturer and he ruins the whole thing.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Yes. (Laughter.]

Mr. KARTH. I mean, all of the tests we had in our wind tunnel really go for naught because it's got to fly with people in it. We can't just make it look fancy in an air tunnel.

Seriously, are we wise, coming up with four or five or six preliminary designs before we actually submit one of them to a manufacturer and let him take it from there, when he will probably take it apart and start all over?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I think in order to do this, to the best advantage, it is wise for us to build a number of these before a manufacturer tries to design something that's practical with one of them.

As I say, we have tried a number of models before arriving at these four.

Now, when the manufacturer gets one of these he will change this some and change it some in detail, but we will learn the rules that apply and we will not have lost all we did by any manner of means. Mr. MOSHER. Mr. Chairman?

Mr. KARTH. This was of interest to me and I'm very happy you cleared it up.

Mr. Mosher.

Mr. MOSHER. I guess it isn't so much the design as the wind-tunnel data he is interested in.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. This is right. The wind-tunnel data gives us a general comparison of these things and gives the manufacturer a basis for working out his design. It's a back and forth sort of thing.

Mr. KARTH. Except as soon as he broadens the fuselage, for example, the wind-tunnel data is not of much value.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. We have to run more tests. This is right, sir. As you possibly are aware, we have contracts with Boeing and Lockheed to study these four designs, compare them from a standpoint of practical design requirements to advise us which way we should go in our future work.

We are trying to get this input from them.

Mr. KARTH. Mr. Randall?

Mr. RANDALL. Just curious about the term you used. You referred to the thing up front as a "tail." I thought you said a "Canard" tail. Did I hear you right?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is right. That's a rather odd term, I'll admit, but that is the terminology that is used.

This surface performs the same function as this horizontal surface back here which has always been called a "tail."

Mr. RANDALL. While we are on the models, may we have the description between a delta wing and the CR-7 over here?

Will you get to that later?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I expected to get to that later.

Mr. RANDALL. All right. Fine.

Dr. WEAVER. Maybe this is coming later, too, Mr. Chairman, but I wonder if these are designed for ordinary airport takeoff without long jet runways?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. The objective is to operate these machines so they will operate from our same airports as do existing jets-such as the 707 and DC-8.

Dr. WEAVER. Not the ordinary landing; you wouldn't expect to take off at an ordinary airport such as National?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. No, sir.

Dr. WEAVER. Thank you.

Mr. MOSHER. Mr. Chairman, could I ask a question?

Mr. KARTH. Mr. Mosher.

Mr. MOSHER. Are there any other agencies duplicating this work in any way?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. This work? No, sir.

Mr. MOSHER. FAA has no research and development facilities of its own?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. That is right.

Mr. MOSHER. And you are the agency used by FAA for this type of work?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. For this sort of thing we do the work for the FAA. That's right.

Mr. MOSHER. Are there any industrial facilities that are being used for parallel or duplicating purposes?

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. Some of the larger companies have their own facilities Boeing, for example, has very extensive wind-tunnel facilities and they do work also in this area using their own funds.

Now, they do not duplicate our work; in a sense-they try to do better. They know what we are doing and they try to come up with something better, and we hope they will, actually.

Does

Mr. MOSHER. What about an outfit like Cornell at Buffalo? industry employ them to do some of this type of thing, too? Mr. ZIMMERMAN. They have, at times, but I'm not aware that they are employing them on this particular effort.

Mr. KARTH. Proceed.

Mr. ZIMMERMAN. I believe my next slide shows the configurations. We'll just go right on by that. In connection with the development of the supersonic transport there is not only the problem of

getting an efficient configuration. There is a tremendous problem getting an efficient powerplant to go with it, and one of the major problems is the development of a powerplant as indicated by the next slide (fig. 176).

A great deal of work has been going on in the last couple of years, studying the engine problem. The engines that have been developed for the B 70 are not really suitable for use in a commercial supersonic aircraft because they are not designed to have the low noise level and the efficiency under certain conditions that are required for commercial work. So, we are doing work on studying not only engines, but possible engine cycles and three of them are illustrated in this slide.

I think in the interests of time I will just go on to the next slide (fig. 177) which refers to the matter of sonic boom which was brought up by your chairman a few moments ago. We have done a great deal of work in the area of sonic boom not only from the standpoint of trying to understand what causes it, but also to try to understand how we can design the aircraft to minimize it and how we must operate the aircraft to minimize it.

Now, as the slide shows, there is a difference in configurations in the amount of boom that they produce and we indicated on the slide a theoretical lower bound that you might achieve if you designed the aircraft with nothing else in mind.

Also shown is a level for one of the configurations we have shown you and another level for one of the other configurations. As I say, we have done a lot of work in this area.

We fairly well understand what causes the boom, but we have no solution to the boom. It is still a very serious problem that we are working on.

Also in connection with the supersonic transport and in fact on all of our supersonic aircraft regardless of whether it is a fighter, a bomber, or a transport being considered, there is a serious problem of flying and handling qualities and how one works the aircraft into the air-traffic-control patterns, and so forth-the stability required.

One of the things we are doing, we have purchased a Jetstar airplane, a secondhand one, incidentally; and are equipping it with variable stability equipment as indicated in the next slide (fig. 178) which can be used to cause the airplane to be something else.

In other words, with this aircraft, we can simulate a supersonic transport or we can simulate a 707 and let the pilot find out what he can live with, what he can't live with, and what we ought to build into the aircraft that's coming along.

Mr. KARTH. From whom did you buy the secondhand Jetstar?