we consolidate and coordinate the various programs intended to minimize, hopefully eliminate in the long run, unemployment and at the same time not getting into mere make-work projects and in turn the WPA of the great depression.

I do not have my own thinking clarified but this program does to some extent overlap the poverty program. The Conservation Corps and the accelerated public works program. I would be hopeful that by January the administration, with your help and perhaps the help of some committees of the Department of Labor and other Federal agencies would be able to come up with a general program to incorporate all of these suggestions for alleviating unemployment among the workers while at the sam etime assuring that the employment that is given results in the creation of wealth and the carrying on of useful work which, as indicated in your bill, would be to the benefit of State and local governments.

I would be happy to have you, if you would like to stay, come up here and sit with the subcommittee during the balance of the hearings this morning.

Senator NELSON. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. On the point you made, Mr. Chairman, on the overlapping and duplication, I think one of the greater merits of this proposal is that it will be administered by the appropriate agency. Now any Federal funds administered in the forestry service or agricultural department, any agency of the Federal Government, would be administered, and operated by the present personnel.

Of course any funds that were used at the local level would be administered by them. I do not think you would have a serious problem. It is one that we must be concerned about but I don't think we have a serious problem on so-called WPA or make-work projects because every agency at local level, and every State agency has needs and important work to be done that they just don't have funds to do.

So the work is there. It is not necessary to create any work. We have had a very fine experience in Wisconsin, incidentally, with the youth conservation camps. I appeared before your committee sometime back on that but we have three now in Wisconsin and we are creating another one.

At the time these youth conservation camps were created, the conservation department itself was somewhat skeptical of the contribution that could be made by these young men who have to be in the age grouping of 16 to 19. Mr. Schumacher, who is on the conservation commission can say a word or two about that. The director of the conservation department, Mr. Voigt, told me 3 weeks ago when I discussed it with him that they are just astonished at the great contribution in the field of conservation that these young folks are doing.

They are under the supervision of the conservation department. They would be happy to have several more camps because they have as of right now 170,000 man-months of work to be done that are already programed and are unable to do.

So I think we have no problem in terms of constructive work to be done.

Senator CLARK. Let me ask you one more question, Senator. You say that the bill would provide for administering these projects through existing Federal, State, and local agencies but I notice from

glancing hastily at it that the chairman of the National Human and Resource Conservation Council has, does he not, under the bill the obligation and duty of determining which projects to authorize, in which localities or States? Would this not be a pretty substantial administrative task requiring a rather substantial staff?

Senator NELSON. We simply provide in the bill that you have one full-time man who would be in charge of this. He could fit anyplace, including under the new antipoverty program. The Council that would be created-National Human and Resources Conservation Council-would be composed of representatives from Defense, Interior, Agriculture, Labor, Health, Education, and Welfare to be appointed by the head of the Department and a representative of the Office of Economic Opportunity to be appointed by the Director of such Office.

I am not sure that we know exactly what personnel he would need but it certainly would be a modest number under this director. He would have to make a determination of allocation and no State under this bill could receive more than 1212 percent.

But in any event once the State justified its program of what they intended to do with money and a determination of some allocation to that State or city was made, the administrative problem would be almost ended. I am perfectly satisfied. I am not worried about the question of States or cities administering a good program. They can do it as well as the Federal Government, as you know as a former mayor of a big city and I think that is the good part of this proposal, that you allow local administrators to do their kind of job to see that they get performance for the allocation made.

On the Federal side, once a certain amount is allocated by the Federal Government, then again you are simply relying on the forestry service, the Agriculture Department, Interior, and what have you, to see to it that they use the personnel allocated to them in a constructive fashion.

I think that is the best you can do. You can create all kinds of machinery to attempt to go out and do a secondary job of supervision without much success.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Senator. I appreciate you being with us.

Senator NELSON. I thank you. I don't know in what order to continue since we interrupted the mayor. I would be happy to stand aside for him and then I would like to have Mr. Schumacher, who came from Wisconsin, make his presentation.

Senator CLARK. I think we can dispose of your witness right now if he has a statement.

STATEMENT OF JACK J. SCHUMACHER, CONSERVATION COMMISSIONER, STATE OF WISCONSIN, FOR L. P. VOIGT, DIRECTOR, WISCONSIN CONSERVATION DEPARTMENT

Mr. SCHUMACHER. My name is Jack J. Schumacher. I am on the Wisconsin conservation commission. I would like the record to show that when Senator Gaylord Nelson introduced the bill 2958 on June 26 of this year he ably summarized the need for this human and resource conservation with many facts as well as calculated future needs of our country and its people.

There is no reason to repeat this information with which I essentially agree but there may be some merit in relating this to Wisconsin problems and what we are doing and hope to do about them. In the spring of 1961 Senator Nelson used his office as Governor of Wiscon

sin

Senator CLARK. Mr. Schumacher, may I interrupt you to say that I have a copy of your prepared statement here. I would prefer, if it is agreeable to you, just to have it printed in full in the record and then if you would merely summarize the highlights of any part you wish to stress.

Mr. SCHUMACHER. Mr. Chairman, in view of that fact we find that Senator Gaylord Nelson's progressive pioneering effort over the years has worked out very well. The youth camps are a tremendous sucThey have waiting lists, the boys are most happy and are very

cess.

well trained.

The camps eliminate this hoodlum element and the boys take great pride in their work which consists of such conservation projects as planting trees and developing fish habitats along the streams. All in all the program is tremendously successful.

There are other phases that could be considered also. The general overall picture of conservation is that we have been acquiring land for future use and it needs some development. The bill, itself, I think has great merit and should be seriously considered.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, Mr. Schumacher. We appreciate your coming here and presenting your testimony. (The prepared statement of Mr. Voigt follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT BY DIRECTOR L. P. VOIGT, WISCONSIN CONSERVATION

DEPARTMENT

When Senator Gaylord A. Nelson introduced S. 2958 on June 26 of this year, he ably summarized the need for this Human and Resource Conservation Act with many facts as well as calculated future needs of our country and its people. These is no reason to repeat this information with which I essentially agree, but there may be some merit in relating this to Wisconsin problems and what we are doing and hope to do about them.

In the spring of 1961 Senator Nelson used his office as Governor of Wisconsin to recommend and promote an Outdoor Recreation Act which was adopted promptly with bipartisan support. Based on an additional 1 cent per pack cigarette tax, this program was calculated to supply $50 million over a 10-year period. In spite of somewhat reduced sales of cigarettes in recent months, the results have been significant for resource conservation and vital to the future of our valuable tourist and outdoor recreation industry.

Wisconsin's Outdoor Act started in September of 1961-less than 3 years ago and in that short time well over 1,000 parcels of land have been secured for conservation purposes either by easement or in fee simple. This included over 86,000 acres of land at a cost of approximately $8 million. But most important is the fact that over 325 miles of frontage on lakes and streams has been preserved for all future time for outdoor recreation use by the public. This includes extensive wetlands for wildlife habitat, fish spawning areas, access to public waters, park and forest areas for picnicking and camping-as well as the value of these lands properly managed for the growth of timber, grasses, and watershed stabilization.

It should be pointed out that all of this was accomplished through Senator Nelson's Outdoor Recreation Act in addition to the Wisconsin Conservation Department's regular land acquisition budget program which would increase these totals by about 42,000 acres and $12 million. Further, the 1961 act included many other significant provisions with funds for development and maintenance of recreation areas, establishment of three Youth Conservation Camps, building of recreational lakes in connection with flood control structures, preservation of open space in urban areas, construction of tourist in

formation centers, development of recreation areas in the State's extensive county forests, and for long-range comprehensive planning. Because of these accomplishments in Wisconsin, with successful program still going forward at a rapid pace, Senator Nelson's national proposal for a Human and Resource Conservation Act deserves serious consideration.

The Wisconsin Conservation Department can attest to the fact that it has a great deal of work which could be done under this proposal or similar legislation. State parks, forests, and wildlife management areas-hundreds of them— are in need of considerable maintenance and development. Not long ago we estimated that there was at least 177,000 man-months of labor needed on projected buildings, roads, public use areas, water-control structures, mapping, parking areas, and habitat or forest improvement of several kinds. Moreover, we feel competent to run such a work program for we have had long and extensive experience with such programs as WPA, CCC, and the recent efforts through APW.

As a general rule, the conservation departments, or similar State agencies in charge of fish, game, parks, and forests, are well acquainted with work programs of this sort and can make good use of manpower on established conservation project lands. However, there are some complications frequently experienced in trying to match Federal funds when the State agencies concerned already have committed their available funds for priority projects for which they are responsible. New Federal aid funds aimed at putting unemployed people to work cannot be considered a direct substitute for programs already being carried on with personnel who cannot be laid off to release funds for matching purposes. In order to make this new Human and Resource Conservation Act successful so far as most State conservation agencies are concerned, either new State matching moneys are essential or else the Federal contribution must be at a high level-at least 90 percent. The act anticipates such a high Federal aid contribution in the areas of most serious poverty or unemployment, but this may have to be interpreted liberally when the program gets underway. After all, the purpose primarily is to put needed people to work and the accomplishment of conservation projects is of a secondary nature. Many of these may not be of the highest priority, but they all will contribute to the total benefit and welfare of the public in the long run. It should be needless to say that this type of outdoor work is healthful and generates an understanding of nature or land management which often helps men to become self-sustaining. Without question, the work will counteract the effect of urban lethargy and slum conditions.

It is a pleasure to be able to endorse S. 2958 and to recommend its prompt enactment by the Congress this year. The need is great and action is urgent. Passage of the Human and Resource Conservation Act will restore two of America's most valuable natural resources at one stroke of the pen-its manpower and their natural habitat-resulting in a healthy community.

Senator NELSON. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ralph Hovind from the Department of Resource Development of the State of Wisconsin, representing the Governor, is here. If the mayor does not mind, Mr. Hovind could put in his prepared statement.

Senator CLARK. Yes, suppose you come up, Mr. Hovind. If you have a prepared statement you may have it printed in the record.

STATEMENT OF RALPH HOVIND, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF RECREATION AND RESOURCES, DEPARTMENT OF RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT, STATE OF WISCONSIN, FOR GOV. JOHN REYNOLDS

Mr. HOVIND. Governor Reynolds is fully informed of this program. I would like to summarize from his statement if I could, 10 points that he thinks are strongest for it. They are these:

The labor market in the 1960's is being flooded by the product of the postwar baby boom and the situation is not going to get any better. During this decade in Wisconsin we will see approximately 55 percent more in this age group than we have seen in the past decade.

Jobs, according to your committee, for the unskilled are disappearing. Wisconsin, along with other States, has great need for public investment in its natural resources. It also has 22 counties in the north

ern part of the State classified as depressed areas. Urban youth desperately need more opportunity.

The major public investment in Wisconsin's resources was of great economic aid to private industry as well as to the public trust and was a great help to the big paper industry in Wisconsin. It was the basis, in many respects, for the start of their management of forests and construction of many of the roads by which they haul pulp to their mills at a reduced cost.

Resource camps in Wisconsin are well received by the public. Wisconsin has the work needs delineated. Work in this field has a therapeutic value, the Governor feels, for disturbed youth. And he hopes that consideration can be given in the future to programs even for young women in this field. This is a summary of the Governor's remarks. Thank you.

(The prepared statement of Governor Reynolds follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JOHN REYNOLDS, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN

Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, I want to urge your support of Senator Nelson's proposal to put men to work to protect our resources and to develop the potential of this Nation's unemployed.

This proposal is basically a public investment in our human and nature resources. It tackles two of the problems that we in Wisconsin consider most critical.

As Governor of a State with a variety of programs in both employment and resources, I feel compelled to comment on the need for this action.

We have our large urban areas which are experiencing heavy immigrations from both in and out of State. We have our dropouts and our depressed regions where 22 of our northern counties have been declared ARA eligible. We recognize some of the causes of the changes that are creating problems.

Change is always with us, but it is now remarkably accelerated by technological advances, and most importantly, by the population explosion-the postwar baby boom that is creating such a large group of young workers in this decade. For many Americans, the 1960's are years of stress. During this period, estimates say, this Nation must come up with approximately 15 million new jobs. Thirteen million of these will be needed to offset the growth in the labor force due simply to the population increase, but 2 million will be needed to offset job losses due to automation and technological change.

The major problems involve our young people entering the labor market for the first time.

During the 1960's, the number of young people in the 18 to 24 year age group entering the labor market will be 40 percent greater than in the previous decade. In my own State of Wisconsin, youngsters of the 15 to 19 age group will increase by nearly 50 percent-and those in the 20 to 24 age group, by nearly 55 percent in this period.

Throughout the Nation, labor statistics tell us, the prospects for jobs appear brightest in the professional and technical fields, where openings will perhaps grow proportionately faster than the labor force. In skilled trades, new jobs will keep up with the growth but in semiskilled, the growth in jobs will lag behind the supply of workers by one-third. Unskilled jobs will decline. In farming, a big drop is occurring.

Resource work on the land calls for great amounts of labor. It is perfectly adaptable to a wide range of worker capabilities, and it can accommodate many who, because of inadequate training or other problems, cannot be provided for in other programs.

Wisconsin urgently needs public investment to affect both manpower and our natural resources.

We know that our young forests springing up in our once-razed northwoods area will need quick management action if they are not to grow up into poor

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