closely with educational officials in recommending that such classes be established wherever the need is apparent. Our relationship along these lines is one primarily of assistance to one another. We collaborate by exchanging information and by directing the attention of employers and labor groups to the service of one another in localities where problems involving either may arise. The Office of Education is primarily involved in teaching classes, providing instructors and paying for them. We are primarily involved in providing a technical consulting service directly to industry on its own internal training system for its employed workers.

The Office of Education, through the vocational-education program takes care of the related training.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no overlapping?

Mr. BROWN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the relationship between your program and that of the W. P. A.?

Mr. BROWN. The W. P. A. program is primarily one of pre-employment. Ours is entirely in-plant training.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the N. Y. A.?

Mr. BROWN. The N. Y. A. program likewise is a preemployment training program. Again I say we deal only with in-plant training. I might say that we hire no instructors; we pay no tuition, and we make no grants in aid. The employer pays the entire cost of the operation of the training program.

ADDITIONAL DEPARTMENTAL AND FIELD PERSONNEL REQUESTED

The CHAIRMAN. How do you propose to use the additional personnel you expect to employ with this $90,000?

Mr. BROWN. We are asking an increase, Mr. Chairman, of 90 new field jobs and 11 departmental jobs in Washington for a little less than 3 months. Twelve positions of these 90 in the field, and 6 of the departmental are for stenographic and clerical assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. Are these permanent employees or temporary employees?

Mr. BROWN. Beginning today, all of them will have to be wartime employees.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. For what period?

Mr. BROWN. War employees?

The CHAIRMAN. That means for the duration of the war?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. With all of these industries running at top production, when they have ample personnel on hand, it will not be necessary to have this item?

Mr. BROWN. There should be a reduction at that time.

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING SYSTEMS IN OPERATION

The CHAIRMAN. What have you done up to date; what contribution have you made to industry up to this time?

Mr. BROWN. Our field men have gone forward in the development of all phases of in-plant training. For instance, in apprenticeship training our program has increased to include over 1,400 apprenticeship systems now in operation.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean by that 1,400 different plants?

Mr. BROWN. There are numerous different plants included in one system; and there are some plants included as one system. Basically, our men are answering requests of industry to come in and help them set up various forms of training programs.

Illustrative of the types of training programs which are included in this figure of 1,400 different systems, I should like to direct your attention specifically to a few of the outstanding war-production industries which we are servicing. For instance, in the shipbuilding industry, we have been responsible for assisting, among others, the following major companies:

In aircraft, our service has been extended to include:

In metal shaping which, too, is a most important war industry, we

Others, too numerous to mention however, include:

The CHAIRMAN. But these 1,400 systems are actually operating? Mr. BROWN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. With personnel engaged upon the training systems? Mr. BROWN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In what States, particularly, are these men engaged?

Mr. BROWN. Basically in the heavy industrial centers; but we have men in most States.

The CHAIRMAN. And in all industries?

Mr. BROWN. That is right. However, emphasis is on war industries.

NATURE OF WORK DONE AT FORD MOTOR CO. PLANT

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. You are familiar with the set-up. We are not. Suppose you just take one outstanding industry and tell us how you operate and what you do, just as an example. You are talking in generalities, and just as well be talking Dutch to me, because I do not know what you are talking about. Suppose you pick out an industry, a typical industry and tell us what you are doing in that industry; then we will have some definite idea of what you do in the plant.

Mr. BROWN. With your permission I would like to call on Mr. Thomas Moran.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Moran.

70270-42-pt. 1—17

Mr. MORAN. Mr. Chairman, I think probably a good example would be the Ford Motor Co., one of the largest firms being converted from peacetime production to wartime production. The Ford Motor Co. was an early company to maintain its own training system. With the rapid change over from peacetime production of automobiles to wartime production a burden was put upon its staff to solve that problem on a consulting basis, particularly in the labor relations aspects. That problem is handled, in this case, by a field representative of our staff, in the Detroit office.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. Who is he?

Mr. MORAN. Joseph Pieconke.

His principal job is one of relating their previous training program in peacetime to the wartime program, and that involves something like 4,000 apprentices, who perhaps have been under instruction and who are now on war work.

This means that to meet such a training burden someone has to assist them, where they request it, first to take the people who have been working in the previous peacetime training program and put them on a new wartime training program, and do it quickly, and prepare them for certain needed types of work. The general training program might be the same but the conditions of training might be different.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. You say you have men in this plant? Mr. MORAN. There are two men who go into the plant. In this case the major question involves labor relations, how to adjust the training of workers where a new bargaining agreement is involved, and to have some understanding of the conditions and details involving the change-over of the plant, the conversion from peacetime to war production. The details might involve anything, from the hours of work to what should be taught apprentice engineers the first 2 weeks.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. Does the Ford management have anything to do with it?

Mr. MORAN. Oh, yes; it is all theirs. We are merely called in to assist in setting up the program and ironing out difficulties that may arise with the workers.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. You boys act at the direction of the Ford management; is that the idea?

Mr. MORAN. Well, not entirely. We pass on information gained from other plants.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. You do not think you know more than the Ford people, do you?

Mr. MORAN. No; but we do know that in certain parts of the country, in some other plant, they may have worked out a program that is being used successfully, which the Ford Co. does not know anything about.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. And you take that to the Ford management?

Mr. MORAN. Only on request; we merely go into these plants and work out programs with them where they request it.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. Who requested it; Mr. Ford? Mr. MORAN. The request, I think, came from several sources. When the labor election was held in the Ford plant last year, immediately the apprentices in that plant practically went on individual strikes

of their own because they felt they were not being considered in the bargaining agreement being established by the union and the company. Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. They went on strike because they did not like the bargaining arrangement?

Mr. MORAN. They felt they were not being given proper consideration in the set-up.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. Your job is to help secure trained men?

Mr. MORAN. The plan is to establish the technique of securing trained, skilled workers.

The CHAIRMAN. You men act in the capacity of technical advisers? Mr. MORAN. Technical advisers; yes.

SERVICES RENDERED TO INDUSTRIAL PLANTS

The CHAIRMAN. How many plants have you gone into and the total number of men?

Mr. MORAN. If I might answer the question this way, in the last 8 months, I would say that 88,000 separate services have been rendered to employers in a total of something like 15,000 plants.

The CHAIRMAN. 88,000 services to 15,000 plants?

Mr. MORAN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of those were voluntary; and how many were at the request of the plant?

Mr. MORAN. I would have to check that.

The CHAIRMAN. How many requests have you had from plants without suggestion from you?

Mr. MORAN. I could not answer that definitely. About 75 percent, I should think, were on requests.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose you supplement your testimony with that. Mr. MORAN. Yes.

(The information requested follows:)

Based upon a review of field reports submitted to the regional and Washingto¬ offices of the Apprenticeship Section of the Division of Labor Standards, there is definite evidence of an increase in the number of requests for service as compared with the number of plant calls made on the initiative of field representatives. At the present time, approximately 40 percent of all first contacts made with manufacturing concerns are made at the request of the establishment itself. Field reports, likewise, indicate that subsequent follow-up calls required of field representatives in assisting in the establishment of various forms of in-plant training programs are predominantly at the request of industry itself.

The reporting procedure for field men, which was in effect prior to the outbreak of the war, was such that it did not include statistics on the comparison of calls made at requests of plants as against those made upon the initiative of field representatives. A review of the information available indicates that prior to our placing specific emphasis upon defense, and later upon war-producing industries, the percentage of initial contacts made at the request of manufacturers approximated 10 percent.

Priority consideration is being given to requests from war-producing establishments, particularly in the initial stages of developing plant-training programs for these concerns. We are experiencing difficulty in meeting the requests of industry for the services of field men to devote almost their entire time for a period of days, and even weeks, for purposes of assuming major responsibility for actually initiating plant-training programs and training the personnel of the plant to carry on the job. (Attached are excerpts of typical letters showing industry's requests for service and acknowledgments of service as a result of such request.)