The CHAIRMAN. The 68-cent price was later corrected in the record. The price was 68 cents for 40 blades. Now I notice that on page 54 of the justifications you have the figure of 23.5 cents for razor blades. General GREGORY. That is the razor and the blades.

The CHAIRMAN. How many blades?

General GREGORY. One razor and five blades for 23.5 cents.

Mr. TABER. If they were buying the blades alone, what would be the cost?

General GREGORY. We do not buy blades without razors.

Mr. TABER. Do you mean he has a new razor for every five shaves? General GREGORY. No, sir; he buys his own blades after his initial issue of five blades.

Mr. TABER. This is more money than you have had in the last couple of years, with the increased number of men in the Army. General GREGORY. This also includes initial equipment for a large number of men, plus equipage as well.

General LITTLEJOHN. And the maintenance was set up to the 1st of October.

ARMY TRANSPORTATION

The CHAIRMAN. We will take up the items for Army transportation. We have a total estimate of $2,245,701,000 for Army transportation.

If there is no objection, we will include in the record the entire table on page 74 of the justifications.

(The table referred to is as follows:)

The CHAIRMAN. I notice you have an estimate of $999,164 for animal transportation.

I thought in this day animals were obsolete. What is the necessity for that estimate?

General GREGORY. I would say this about this particular program for animal transportation, and also in reference to the purchase of animals. The current trend in organization has been toward mechanization, but the wide diversity of countries where we may be called upon to operate makes an increase in the number of animals a possibility. But the immediate procurement of animals and animal equipment under these estimates is not contemplated. The funds will be held in reserve, pending definite requirements for new animals; that is, until it becomes obvious that we will need them.

When the program was first prepared it seemed that we would have some new units that would use animals. Now it seems that possibly we will not activate such units.

Mr. TABER. Why appropriate the money if we probably will not need them?

General GREGORY. The need may occur very quickly, and if we do not spend the money we will keep it in reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. You will not procure them until after the need is self-evident?

General GREGORY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your objective in the program for animals? Colonel HARDY. The situation now is that we have enough to meet the training program of the War Department for 1942. The animals. for the current year and the estimated amount of equipment for them were included in the program when the War Department thought it would use certain animal units, but it has now decided we may not use the number of animal units originally planned. If we do not use any more than they contemplate for the training program for 1942, we already have enough animals, together with the money already appropriated, to fill the requirements..

The CHAIRMAN. You also have sufficient equipment in the way of bridles, saddles, and harness?

General GREGORY. We will not buy them until the increased use of animals becomes apparent.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you on hand?

Colonel Hoss. We have a good deal of harness and that type of equipment on hand.

In project No. 3 we have an item for modifying certain saddles which we require at the present time.

The CHAIRMAN. You will recall that after the last war when Congress spent a million dollars investigating the war and the cost of the war, the only item they could find to criticize was the purchase by the Army of about five times as many bridles and saddles as they could use, and innumerable halters, beyond the range of imagination, so far as the actual number of animals which might be needed was concerned. I trust no similar error will be made in this war.

Colonel Hoss. We have not overbought on any of this equipment. General GREGORY. We still have enough saddles from the other war to fill our future requirements.

Mr. CASE. I would like to ask Colonel Hardy what the latest reports are as to the place of cavalry in warfare on the Russian front. Mr. STARNES. I am going to ask you some questions about the British, as to whether they are still using horses.

Colonel HARDY. The reports in the newspapers are that the cavalry of the Russian Army has been doing considerable good work. In the last few months it has been true that the operations of the motorized elements of both sides have been at least retarded by the severe cold weather which they have experienced.

Mr. CASE. If you have a horse-buying program, either for pack horses or mules, or cavalry horses or for transportation, how far in advance of the time you need them do you have to have your funds with which to buy them?

Colonel HARDY. We should have 4 months' notice before the animals would be ready for issue to units for use, and the units should have a reasonable time to get them in condition and trained for actual combat use.

Mr. CASE. It is not possible to wait until the emergency arises and then say we have to have some horses?

Colonel HARDY. No; that should be anticipated at least 4 months in advance.

Mr. TABER. Do you mean you have to buy them 4 months in advance of their use?

Mr. CASE. They must be conditioned and the horses have to undergo a certain amount of training.

Colonel HARDY. These horses get sick and they have to be gotten over that and trained sufficiently so that the ordinary soldier can either ride them or drive them.

Mr. TABOR. Does that mean you have to buy stock right now? Colonel HARDY. No, sir; but as General Gregory explained, we will not buy them until it is indicated at least 4 months ahead of time that we will need them.

Mr. TABER. That does not make sense to me; because how do you know when you will buy them?

Colonel HARDY. The War Department makes the decision as to how many animalized units it desires and when such units will be activated. The Quartermaster General is advised in sufficient time to have the required number of animals ready for the units at the time designated for their activation.

Mr. CASE. It is a question that would have to be answered according to the war plans, I suppose.

Colonel HARDY. When we put in for the requirements of the P. M. P. the augmentation included animals in the estimates then made. Subsequent to that time the War Department has modified those plans so as to decrease the number of animal-using units originally contemplated. So we do not need any more animals right now for the present plans.

The CHAIRMAN. On tomorrow morning how many mounted troops could be turned out, fully equipped, with wagon trains fully equipped, with the required number of animals, in the entire United States Army?

If we had to mobilize all of our mounted troops tomorrow morning, how many could you muster?

Mr. SNYDER. How many horses have you?

Colonel HARDY. We have about 8,000 animals of all types in our depots in addition to about 42,000 in the hands of units.

Mr. SNYDER. Part of them are horses and part of them are other draft animals?

Colonel HARDY. The majority are riding horses.

We have about 7,000 animals of all types, in depots, in addition to the ones the units are using.

The CHAIRMAN. A number of them are draft animals?

Colonel HARDY. Yes, sir, but the majority of them are riding horses.

Mr. TABER. How many would you have all together, including those you have for some particular operation in the Army, or those you have in the service, and everything else?

Colonel HARDY. There are about 50,000 animals of all classes on hand at the present time.

Mr. CASE. Does that include the Cavalry for the continental United States?

Colonel HARDY. It includes all authorized units at the present time and replacements on depots.

Mr. CASE. Including everything that may be outside of continental United States?

Colonel HARDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STARNES. The answer to the question that we are trying to get is that until a few months ago there was no particular need in Russia for horse cavalry, but the terrain and weather conditions made it impossible for motor vehicles and tanks to operate with any degree of success, and the Russians have used their horse cavalry, and it has used it quite effectively.

Colonel HARDY. Yes, sir; that is true; except that in the Russian Army they had been using all kinds of horse transportation and cavalry prior to that time. They have made use of it especially since they could not use their motorized equipment because of weather conditions.

Mr. STARNES. After fighting the war for a number of months without using them, they found that they could use them advantageously, and if we are to have an all-purpose force, we must be prepared for any contingency, and no human being can tell when you will need horses in the Army.

Colonel HARDY. That is true.

Mr. CASE. As a matter of fact, when the temperature fell to 50° below zero, the Germans stopped, while the Russians moved on because they had their cavalry.

Colonel HARDY. Yes, sir. I have definite ideas about the use of horses and mules in warfare. I look at it this way: We must use the resources of this country to the fullest extent, and if we have some jobs that can be done by horses and mules, why not use them and thus release materials that would go in trucks and motorized equipment for airplanes and ships? It is a question of balance, both as to composition of the armed forces and the use of available resources. This is what Germany, Russia, and Japan have done; otherwise they would not have been able to create the large armies they now have. If all their ground forces had been mechanized-something would have had to be taken away from the air or the water. These nations used animals wherever they could do the job as well or better than something else.

OTHER REQUIREMENTS

The CHAIRMAN. On page 76 of the justifications there is an item of $200,000 for "Other requirements." Just how important is that item?

Colonel Hoss. That $200,000 is required so we will have a stock of leather necessary for the repair of saddles both at Jeffersonville and in the field. Leather is becoming increasingly difficult to get. The CHAIRMAN. In what respect is this a revolving fund?

Colonel Hoss. We are trying to establish a stock there so that when saddles come in for repair we will not find it necessary to go out and buy a small amount of leather to effect the repairs.

WATER TRANSPORTATION.

The CHAIRMAN. We have an estimate of $50,701,500 for water transportation.

Colonel KELLS. This will provide for the payment of small boats, tugs, barges, floating equipment, and so forth, for use at harbors and ports, and which are now either under purchase or under contract. This estimate provides for pier equipment for 17 piers, most of them ammunition piers. It also provides for a marine railway in Alaska. It provides for arming and degaussing equipment and installations for transports and harbor-defense boats, and, also an item for emergency mine-planting equipment that is required for immediate use for harbor defenses.

Mr. TABER. There is quite an item there for the purchase of boats. Colonel KELLS. Yes, sir.

Mr. TABER. You have some boats that I would like for you to tell us about. For instance, there is the King.

Colonel KELLS. The King is a small refrigerator ship.

Mr. TABER. She was purchased from whom?

Colonel KELLS. She was purchased through the Maritime Commission. All of those vessels are purchased through the Mari Commission except the small vessels.

Mr. TABER. That applies to all of these vessels?

Colonel KELLS. To every one of them except those liste barges, and small vessels.

ARMING AND DEGAUSSING EQUIPMENT

am for

The CHAIRMAN. On page 81 of the justifications, there arming and degaussing equipment and installation and harbor defense boats. How do you arrive at amount?

Colonel KELLS. That provides for 24 vessels of d ́ is almost impossible to predict the actual cost degaussing of these vessels, since some of them are new. Each requires a special job.

The CHAIRMAN. It is specialized work?
Colonel KELLS. Yes, sir.

RADIO-CONTROLLED BOATS

The CHAIRMAN. On page 82 of the justifications y of $204,000 for radio-controlled boats. Give us about that.

Colonel KELLS. That is an additional amount was previously provided in other estimates money f boats, and this represents a deficit in their procu unable to procure radio-controlled boats for the set up.

FERRYBOAT

The CHAIRMAN. There is a large number of ite! first is an item for a ferryboat. What is the jus Colonel KELLS. The justification for that is between our staging areas in the New York por

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