Secretary WICKARD. For a while there was quite a little improvement. I think it stepped up their cheese ration, and I think there was some improvement on fats. But more recently they have had to reduce the ration.

The CHAIRMAN. Even including what they secured from us, it was not sufficient to maintain the ration they had theretofore maintained? Secretary WICKARD. No, sir. But I think that was due to the cutting off of shipments from New Zealand and Australia.

It seems to me everyone in this country has an interest in seeing that the British people are well enough fed to keep them at the peak.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking for increased production on the part of all American farmers, and you are securing compliance with that program?

Secretary WICKARD. Yes; it is very gratifying.

POST-WAR AGRICULTURE

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any assurance that when the war ends, 11 it ends suddenly, as we hope it will-American agriculture will not be geared to a rate of reduction that will result as disastrously as it did at the close of the last war?

Secretary WICKARD. Of course, there is that danger, the same as there is a similar danger in industry.

Industry will be geared to the production of certain things, to a point where there will be a great let-down of activity. That is why I am asking that this $500,000,000 be continued, and I hope it will be continued, to pay farmers for products which they have planted, or for livestock which is in production, and it is very probable that that increased amount of food will be needed by a number of countries when the rehabilitation effort takes place.

SUGAR AND OTHER RATIONING

The CHAIRMAN. Is sugar rationing to be ordered in the near future, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary WICKARD. That is what I read in the papers.
hesitant about saying anything about sugar these days.
The CHAIRMAN. Who determines that?
Secretary WICKARD. Mr. Henderson.

I am rather

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any likelihood that other foods will be rationed?

Secretary WICKARD. I know of none.

The CHAIRMAN. And your supplies are sufficient, with this one exception, to maintain the Nation during the war, without rationing? Secretary WICKARD. I would not say during the entire war. That is taking in too much time and territory.

The CHAIRMAN. If any food would become subject to rationing, what food would it probably be?

Secretary WICKARD. I could not tell you now.

The CHAIRMAN. What are we shortest on at this time?

Secretary WICKARD. I just do not know. Right at the present time there is not exactly a shortage of meat, but the meat prices are pretty high, with cattle at $14 and hogs at $12.90, which indicates that the consumers are buying larger quantities.

I do not think there is a shortage of meat, and I hope there will be no need for rationing meat.

We do know that the supply of oils and fats which we have been getting from the Far East has been cut off, and in a year or two, unless we increase our own production, there may be some shortages in that line. But we do have good supplies on hand, and we are raising more soybeans, flax, and other high oil yielding crops.

I think, however, if our production plans go through, we should not have any shortage of oils and fats a year from now.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any objection to including in the record the tabulation on page 11 of the justifications?

Secretary WICKARD. No; I think not.

The CHAIRMAN. I wonder if you could translate into dollars what you have here and tell us what amounts are involved? Secretary WICKARD. We will try to do that.

(The statement above reefrred to is as follows:)

CATEGORY 7, AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES, DETAILED BREAK-DOWN

CATEGORY 6.-FACILITIES AND EQUIPMENT, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

The CHAIRMAN. Then, on page 8 of the justifications, in category 6, there is an item of $10,000,000 included in one of $35,000,000, which also goes to agriculture. What disposition will be made of that sum, Mr. Secretary?

FACILITIES

Mr. GAUMNITZ. There is an item of $10,000,000 in the figure for agricultural facilities. That item is requested because there is a possibility that that may be needed for certain lines, as, for example, certain dairy products and plants. Plants are short. That has also

been the case in concentrated citrus juices. In some of those cases it has been necessary and desirable to increase facilities.

The general proposition is that the policy thus far has been to have such additional facilities constructed under contract and then leased to firms for production.

The CHAIRMAN. The title to remain in the United States?

Mr. GAUMNITZ. Yes; the title to remain in the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. You think $10,000,000 will cover that?

Mr. GAUMNITZ. That is problematical, of course. looks like it would cover it for the time being.

PURPOSE. OF LEND-LEASE AGRICULTURAL AID

But I think it

Mr. WOODRUM. Mr. Secretary, the purpose of this lend-lease program, so far as the Department of Agriculture is concerned, is to get to our Allies needed food products?

Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. On the theory that it is as necessary to keep them eating as it is to keep them supplied with ammunition for the guns? Secretary WICKARD. I think so.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is fundamental, and I think we all agree to that.

Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. We do not consider it in any sense a farm-relief program; do we?

Secretary WICKARD. I do not.

Mr. WOODRUM. I am glad you do not.

As a matter of fact, of all the people that are having to contribute, and we all have to contribute, the farmers are getting off very well indeed, because they are getting more than parity?

Secretary WICKARD. About parity.

Mr. WOODRUM. No arrangements have been made for parity for automobile dealers, or salesmen, or countless thousands of other American citizens who have gone out of business because of this war; they have to "take it?”

Mr. RABAUT. They have parity in reverse.

Mr. WOODRUM. Yes. In this matter, however, the procedure is such that the farmer will be taken care of, but in no sense is our primary effort to keep up rising prices for farm products?

Secretary WICKARD. No; but I think you have to pay the farmers something like production costs.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is all right, but we do not guarantee that to anybody else.

Secretary WICKARD. I do not think you ask the automobile manufacturer or the gun manufacturer or the munitions manufacturer to sell his product at anything less than cost.

Mr. WOODRUM. We have some people who deal in tires, and we have taken all of their automobile tires; they are out of business and some of them are in bankruptcy. And we have some salesmen who have not jobs. They are out of jobs and automobile dealers are out of jobs. We are converting automobile manufacturing plants, and heaven only knows whether they will ever be converted back again, or who will do it, or how.

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I am not quarreling about it. I am glad we are taking care of the farmers, but do not get the idea that this is a farm-relief measure. You do not have that idea; do you?

Secretary WICKARD. No; it is too hard to get production, to get spraying materials, fertilizers, rubber, and everything else.

ADEQUACY OF AGRICULTURAL AID

Mr. WOODRUM. Have we been able, substantially, to supply the food products that we have been committed to supply to our Allies?

Secretary WICKARD. I think we have, substantially. But there have been times when Great Britain would like to have had more of certain products. One dairy product we have sometimes had a little difficulty in getting has been cheese.

Mr. WOODRUM. Are they fairly well satisfied with our performance? Secretary WICKARD. They tell me they are.

Mr. WOODRUM. Does that apply to Russia, too?

Secretary WICKARD. I think our shipments have been so meager that I would not want to say they have been satisfied with what they have received, but I do not think they can say to the Department of Agriculture that we have not made available what they have asked for.

Mr. GAUMNITZ. I think they have been disappointed to some extent, but not because of our inability to get them what they want. Secretary WICKARD. Yes.

Mr. GAUMNITZ. That goes beyond agriculture.

Mr. WOODRUM. Referring briefly to sugar, Mr. Secretary, one of our colleagues on the floor of the House the other day made the statement, which is in the Congressional Record, that the reason given for the sugar shortage was that they needed sugar to make alcohol for the defense program. He pointed to large stocks of wheat and grain and said alcohol can be made from grain with very little difficulty, and that there would not necessarily be any sugar shortage.

Secretary WICKARD. I could not agree with that statement, that you can take care of the sugar problem wholly by using corn and wheat for making alcohol.

The reason for that is that we have lost so much of the importations from the Philippines and Hawaii, and so much of the Cuban crop has been taken for shipment to European countries, and there is not enough of distilling capacity for corn and grain to make up that shortage now.

At the present time we are getting the distillers of whisky and other products to the point where they are using grain, both wheat and corn, for that purpose. But even at that, if we used the entire distilling capacity of the whisky distilleries, I am sure we could not solve this problem. My criticism is that we did not start soon enough.

The Department of Agriculture advocated the stopping of making whisky and the diversion of plants to producing 194 proof alcohol last July, but I think that until recently we have not been able to get as much of the past use for this purpose as we sought.

Mr. WOODRUM. In connection with this allocation of $3,567,115,000 for agricultural, industrial, and other commodities, the only part that comes under your jurisdiction is an item of $1,300,000.000 for agricultural products?

Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. The other items come under other agencies?
Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ludlow.

PURCHASES OUTSIDE UNITED STATES

Mr. LUDLOW. Mr. Secretary, I have been very much impressed with your able presentation of this subject. I think you have answered nearly all the questions I have in mind, but there are two or three questions that occur to me that I would like to ask. I believe you stated, in connection with the Icelandic purchases that the dollars spent out there reverted to the United States for purchases in this country. Is that true with reference to other foreign purchases that you contemplate making, or will that be true of them?

Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir. Of course, it would be in the case of sugar. Our purchases there ordinarily are to enable them to buy a lot of things from us. That applies to even agricultural products, such as our pork purchases, rice purchases, and things of that kind. Mr. LUDLOW. And in those indirect ways there would be a reimbursable feature for these operations?

Secretary WICKARD. Yes, sir; to some extent.

Mr. LUDLOW. Would that be substantial?

Secretary WICKARD. I am not positive that it would be substantial at the present time.

PAYMENT FOR AGRICULTURAL COMMODITIES

Mr. LUDLOW. Let me ask this question: In furnishing these food products to foreign countries, do you take any notes or obligations, or is this a part of our contribution to the war?

Secretary WICKARD. No, sir; a very accurate record is kept of everything.

Mr. LUDLOW. When you say an accurate record or accounting is kept of it, is any security taken for it, or is there any expectation of its being paid?

Secretary WICKARD. I think it is the duty of the State Department, under the master agreement, to handle that. I am not familiar enough with it to answer the question accurately.

Mr. LUDLOW. You say that a careful accounting is kept?

Secretary WICKARD. I know that we keep accounts of it in the Department of Agriculture.

PURCHASE AT PARITY AND OPEN-MARKET PURCHASES

Mr. LUDLOW. In line with the chairman's question in reference to the total volume of lend-lease purchases, could you estimate-I know it would be rather vague but, nevertheless, it would be an estimatewhat the dollar differential would be between purchases at parity and purchases on the open market, in the total volume?

Secretary WICKARD. Our purchases average some place around parity now.

Mr. LUDLOW. There has probably been no differential, then, at all?