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Mr. KLUGH. Yes; I had no intention of confusing you. I spoke of our organization as a nonprofit organization.

Representative LANHAM. That is, all of them together, in convention assembled?

Mr. KLUGH. In the association. Our association is nonprofit making, but broadcasting stations, themselves, tried to accumulate sufficient income to keep them going. We hardly know of any that have been successful in doing it.

Representative GOODWIN. Is it not a fact a great number of these stations are supported by civic organizations?

Mr. KLUGH. Yes; a certain portion of them are, Mr. Goodwin. Representative LANHAM. May I ask you this question: Why give priority to this legislation on this feature of the copyright law and send this out when bills are proposed and pending covering the entire copyright question?

Mr. KLUGH. I think the answer to that, Congressman, is that the general revision of the copyright act is a very lengthy process. We need immediate relief, and we feel that by making a simple proposal or advocating a simple proposal we might get that relief without delay, which would not affect the main copyright bills that have come up.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand there is no objection on the part of the committee to proceeding as Mr. Klugh suggests he would like to proceed. Therefore, he may call his witnesses as he likes.

Representative BLOOм. I would like to ask Mr. Klugh a lot of questions.

The CHAIRMAN. At this time, or later?
Representative BLOOM. At this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Representative BLOOM. You did the broadcasting, did you not, last Sunday night?

Mr. KLUGH. Yes.

Representative BLOOM. What is your interpretation of this bill, Mr. Klugh? What do you understand the bill in all to mean? Senate bill 2328?

Mr. KLUGH. Just what do you mean, what I think of it?

Representative BLOOM. You did the broadcasting, and you told the listeners-in to write to the Senators and Congressmen to approve of this bill, did you not?

Mr. KLUGH. No, sir.

Representative BLOOM. You did not?

Mr. KLUGH. No, sir.

Representative BLOOM. How did you come to get Mr. Hoover's name in this thing? I received hundreds of letters telling me to support the Hoover bill.

Mr. KLUGH. There was nothing mentioned in connection with Mr. Hoover's name, excepting in connection with the Fourth Radio Conference. This is the copy of the address referred to, Mr. Chairman [producing a paper]. I do not just see Mr. Hoover's name in it. It may be here.

Representative BLOOM. Let me read it to you.

Mr. KLUGH. It may be there.

Representative BLOOM. Oh, it is there.

Mr. KLUGH. I will be obliged to you if you will point it out.

Representative ВLOOм. On page 3 of your speech which was furnished to me by the American Telephone & Telegraph Co. On page 3 it says [reading]:

The justice of this is easily seen when it is realized that the American society with their monopolistic control can, and actually has, taxed broadcasting stations out of existence.

At a conference called by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover in Washington last fall a committee labored over this music problem for four days, finally recommending that Congress be asked to give relief through amending the present copyright law.

Is that on that?

Mr. KLUGH. I do not find that in my verbatim copy of what I said. However, it makes no difference. I have made that statement here all right.

Representative ВLOOM. You made that statement over the radio last Sunday night?

Mr. KLUGH. No, sir; I do not find it.

Representative BLOOM. Here is a copy of the statement

Mr. KLUGH (interposing). I beg your pardon. It is on page 2, and not on 3.

Representative BLOOM. I am telling you what they sent to me. That is on page 2.

Mr. KLUGH. You are correct.

Representative BLOOM. Do you want the committee to understand that Secretary Hoover recommended the passage of it?

Mr. KLUGH. Is that there? Read it. [Reading]:

At the conference called by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover in Washington last fall, a committee labored over this music problem for four days, finally recommending that Congress be asked to give relief through amending the present copyright law.

Representative BLOOM. Do you

Hoover

remember what Secretary

Mr. KLUGH (interposing). I don't think that Secretary Hoover recommended it.

Representative BLOOM. One of the members of the committee said it was all right for them to write and give the listeners-in the impression that Secretary Hoover was indorsing this proposition. Now, did Secretary Hoover indorse your proposition?

Mr. KLUGH. No; I have not so stated.

Representative BLOOM. Do you know what Secretary Hoover said to Committee No. 9?

Mr. KLUGH. Yes, sir.

Representative BLOOM. Shall I read it to you?

Mr. KLUGH. I would be very glad to have you read it.
The CHAIRMAN. What is this you are reading from?

Representative BLOOM. The proceedings of the Fourth National Radio Conference, recommendations for regulation of radio.

Mr. KLUGH. I think Judge Tuttle intends to insert that in the record.

Representative BLOOM. I know, but you are doing all this talking. I want to know what you know about it. Committee No. 9-this is what Secretary Hoover says [reading]:

In organizing this committee Secretary Hoover stated that the matter is one with which the Department of Commerce is not directly concerned. It is a question of copyright rather than radio. While it did not fall within the strict

scope of the conference, in response to numerous requests Committee No. 9, on copyright relations to broadcasting, was appointed. Since the question primarily concerned broadcasters, the committee membership included a group of persons named by the president of the National Association of Broadcasters.

So Secretary Hoover said he had nothing at all to do with it, and the Department of Commerce had nothing to do with it, and it was merely at the suggestion or request of the broadcasters that this Committee No. 9 was appointed; is that right?

Mr. KLUGH. We make no such request.

Senator DILL. He simply said the conference recommended it.
Representative BLOOM. I beg your pardon.

Senator DILL. I mean in this statement he

Representative BLOOM (interposing). But here is what I want to show, Mr. Chairman; the speech that was sent out, the speech that was broadcast, and the letters that we have received, which I will ask Mr. Klugh to explain here, states specifically that this is a Hoover bill, and he left the impression with the listeners-in that this was something recommended by Secretary Hoover. Now [reading]:

No action was taken by the conference on this report. It was allowed to stand as the recommendation of the committee.

Is that right?

Mr. KLUGH. That is right.

Representative BLOOM. That is what Secretary Hoover says. So this was entirely outside of the conference called by Secretary Hoover; is that right?

Mr. KLUGH. No; it was not outside. It was strictly inside.
Representative BLOOM. I will read it again.

Mr. KLUGH. The Secretary said, according to your reading, that it was a matter in which the department desired to make no recommendation.

Representative BLOOM. It was on the request of the broadcasters. Mr. KLUGH. That I have denied and said we made no such request. Representative BLOOM. Then Secretary Hoover is wrong?

Mr. KLUGH. No; I have not said that, but we did not request that the committee be appointed.

Representative BLOOM. What Secretary Hoover said is correct? You would not say it is not correct?

Mr. KLUGH. I am not objecting to the statement of Secretary Hoover

Representative BLOOM (interposing). You would not say it is not

correct?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bloom, I suggest that you give time for the question and answer, so that the reporter may have a chance to get it into the record.

Representative BLOOM. This is a statement by Secretary Hoover that in organizing this committee it is something in which he is not directly concerned at all. Shall I read it to you again?

Mr. KLUGH. No; I know the statement very well. The statement of the Secretary is correct.

Representative BLOOM. Then in mentioning over the radio to the listeners-in Secretary Hoover's interest, it was the intention for the listeners-in to understand, the people, that this was something sponsored by Secretary Hoover; is that correct?

It

Mr. KLUGH. The test of the speech does not disclose that. was not so stated. We stated that it was considered at the radio conference, which is correct.

Representative LANHAM. Any inference so drawn would be erroneous?

I

Mr. KLUGH. Any inference so drawn would be erroneous. assure the committee again there was no such intention. I will be pleased to place this in the minutes. There was no such intention. Representative BLOOM. Now, you say you did not tell the people to write in and indorse it?

Mr. KLUGH. No; I did not.

Representative BLOOM. What did you do?

Mr. KLUGH. What is the question?

Representative BLOOм. My question is whether you asked the listeners-in to write in favoring the Dill-Vestal bill?

Mr. KLUGH. You have it there.

Read it.

Representative BLOOM. I have it. I will read it.

Mr. KLUGH. I have it, and I can read it to you.

Representative BLOOM. All right, go ahead. Mr. Chairman, it will save time if you allow me to read it, because this is a copy of his speech that he sent out.

The CHAIRMAN. Since you refer to the same thing, why do you not go along and read it?

Representative BLOOM. Very good.

[Reading:]

Just state that you are in favor of the Dill and Vestal bills for broadcasting copyrighted music. This is your affair as much as ours, and we will therefore depend upon you to wire now, and thank you for doing so.

Did you say that, Mr. Klugh?

Mr. KLUGH. I am trying to find the entire text. This is a verbatim copy.

Representative BLOOM. This is on your speech to the broadcasting stations [reading]:

This is a rewrite of the copyright matter. delay?

Will you put it on the air without

Mr. KLUGH. With your permission, Mr. Chairman, I will read what I said.

Representative BLOOM. All right.

Mr. KLUGH (reading):

In

We believe that you, as listeners, will indorse the position of the broadcasters, so that every station's program may continue to be determined on a competitive basis of what you, the listeners, approve of-rather than to be determined by a single organization which monopolizes the music which you wish to hear. fact, we know that now, understanding the situation, you will indorse the broadcasters' stand. To that end we want you to write a short letter to Washington at once expressing your opinion. You must do it to-night in order that it may arrive by the time the committee meets on April 5.

I emphasize there the phraseology, "to that end we want you to write a short letter to Washington at once expressing your opinion." Representative BLOOM. Now, which speech are you reading from? Mr. KLUGH. The one I gave.

Representative BLOOM. The one you gave, is this it [indicating a

paper]?

Mr. KLUGH. This is it right here [indicating a paper].

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Representative ВLOOм. I am asking you whether this is one of your speeches [handing a paper to Mr. Klugh]?

Mr. KLUGH. No; that is not.

Representative BLOOM. That is not one of yours?

Mr. KLUGH. No.

Representative BLOOM. Then the American Telephone & Telegraph Co. is wrong when they sent these in?

Mr. KLUGH. I do not know. This is what my speech was. I will put this in the record.

Senator DILL. Mr. Chairman, this all goes into the record and will speak for itself, and we do not get any hearing on the bill in this way. Representative BLOOM. We will get a lot of hearings if we go at it right. I want to show, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, that this was not explained to the listeners-in

Senator DILL (interposing). It will show that.
Representative BLOOM. If he does not put it in-

Senator DILL (interposing). He said he would put it in.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not be well to proceed with the statement that Mr. Kough had in mind, and then later on put this matter in? I think you have gone far enough to show there is some discrepancy between the statement you have produced and the one Mr. Klugh has sponsored as his. It seems to me that is enough, unless you desire to go further.

Representative BLOOM. I would like to ask a couple more questions. I would like to ask you about the statement you made that two large broadcasters were put out of business on account of this tax? Mr. KLUGH. Yes, sir.

Representative BLOOM. Which two broadcasters?

Mr. KLUGH. The stations at the Ambassador Hotel and the Biltmore Hotel, in Los Angeles.

Representative BLOOM. The Biltmore and Ambassador?

Mr. KLUGH. Yes, sir.

Representative BLOOм. Now, are they broadcasting stations? Have they licenses?

Mr. KLUGH. They are remote control broadcasting stations in Los Angeles.

Representative BLOOм. Remote control stations?

Mr. KLUGH. Yes, sir.

Representative BLOOM. But not large broadcasters.

Mr. KLUGH. They are two big hotels.

Representative BLOOM. And they were put out of business?
Mr. KLUGH. Yes, sir.

Representative BLOOM. When were they put out of business?
Mr. KLUGH. I do not know just when. Within six months.

Representative' BLOOM. And those are the only ones you know

about?

Mr. KLUGH. There are others I could submit. I would like to say this, in connection with those two stations: One has continued out of business; they have ceased broadcasting because of this license fee. The other one has come back on the air, but the fee is being paid by some one else in order to get it back on the air.

Representative BLOOM. Well, did you want to give the impression to the listeners-in that if this bill does not prevail-this Dill-Vestal bill, that the broadcasters would go out of business and they will not be able to receive any free music for broadcasting?"

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