they try to get it back into this country in slightly modified shape or design and come in under domestic patents when they can get patents. The CHAIRMAN. Is there much pirating of toys in this country? Mr. BESTEL. A great deal. Mr. LANHAM. Do you seek protection for the form of toy or for the mechanical feature? Mr. BESTEL. No; the shape or design. Mr. PERKINS. I think, Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman could give us an idea of the kind of toys that are pirated we would get a clearer conception of the bearing his statement has on the whole subject. What is pirated in toys? Mr. BESTEL. I can give you one I have no exhibit here-there is a climbing toy that was brought out about two years ago in the shape of a tractor, and it was brought out to retail at $3.50. The design was pirated and it was brought out the same, or a similar design, and retailed at $1.35. Of course that knocked that one manufacturer out. Mr. PERKINS. Well, was that article so reproduced of the same quality as the article originally produced? Mr. BESTEL. Practically the same quality. Mr. PERKINS. And they were both manufactured in the United States? Mr. BESTEL. Yes, they were both manufactured in the United States. Mr. PERKINS. What was the reason for the difference in price? Mr. BESTEL. Well, the man who originated the toy had to pay for his dies and tools and he had to have a reasonable profit. After those were produced and the design worked out the pirate simply copied it bodily and put it on the market and cut the price. Mr. PERKINS. There is a toy, I think they call it the Yoyo that works on a string and winds itself up. Mr. BESTEL. Yes. Mr. PERKINS. Would they pirate a thing of that kind? Mr. PERKINS. What would prevent the patenting of those things? Mr. BESTEL. Well, it takes quite a time to get a patent through in the patent department, and they invariably copy them and put them on the market, and it is often done by irresponsible manufacturers, and by the time the patent is issued and when you can get redress the value is gone and the pirates are gone. Mr. LANHAM. Do the provisions of this bill protect your industry? Mr. BESTEL. Yes. Mr. LANHAM. The phraseology is sufficient? Mr. BESTEL. I went over it very carefully and it appears to be satisfactory for the protection of our industry. Mr. WILLIAMS. I have asked Mr. Clifford to say a few words. He is rather diffident about doing it, but I think we ought to hear from him. STATEMENT OF C. R. CLIFFORD Mr. CLIFFORD. My name is C. R. Clifford. I am a publisher of trade journals, and I think that it might be interesting for you to know that the first organization that approved of the thought to protect designs or copyrights was the American Trade Press Association. Now, the bill interests every trade journalist for the reason that in publishing a trade journal the thought is to give to his readers the news of new things. We are not permitted to publish the news of new things. I think if we should publish an illustration of a new design we would be sued for damages, because it gives fair warning to the pirate. As a result, all the trade journals of the United States, with the exception of those that are in purely utilitarian matters, iron and steel, all the trade journals that deal with subjects of an artistic interpretation, are compelled to fill their pages not with the news of new things but of old things, and to that degree we are stultified in our efforts to give the best that is in us to our public. Furthermore, the trade at large is not getting all that they could out of their business. Indeed, the salesman shows his line with hesitancy, not knowing exactly whether the buyer is going to turn it over to some friendly pirate or not. In any event, the buyer buys with hesitance because he does not know how soon he will be getting something which is a colorable imitation, always in cheaper material, however, gentlemen, or usually in cheaper material, but a colorable imitation, and get it for less money. Therefore, he does not place an order commensurate with the goods or the samples that are shown to him. I have been for 40 years in close personal touch with the lace trade, the embroidery trade, the carpenter trade, the furniture trade, the upholstery trade, the wall-paper trade, and I would not dare come before you and urge the passage of this bill if I were not con vinced that my constituents were behind me. Mr. LANHAM. Right there, Mr. Clifford, do your remarks reflect the sentiment of the trade publishers in general? I mean are you speaking for trade publications in general, or are you simply speaking for yourself? Mr. CLIFFORD. I am not speaking for anybody but my firm, but your records will show that the American Trade Press Association approved of this measure and passed resolutions endorsing the design bill in one of its many forms. Now, this bill has been before you for several years. Some of these organizations may have approved the bill of four years ago, some the bill of three years ago. You have your records. Mr. Vestal, while he has been chairman, I think, will confirm what I say, that you have had resolutions sent to you from innumerable associations. There is one association in Washington, the American Federation of Arts, with 411 chapters ramifying over the entire country. They have strongly endorsed this bill. I think they are represented here at this meeting. Mr. LANHAM. Are they in the field of trade publications? Mr. CLIFFORD. No; they are not. The only reason why it occurred to me that my appearance might interest you is simply that as a practical man, who has represented for 40 years the industries that are concerned with an artistic product, you might want my views. We have heard this morning from the silk manufacturers, we have heard from artists, and I believe also from the upholstery trade. I would like to go into the records with the statement that the furniture manufacturers indorse this bill-but don't misunderstand me--a design bill that will protect a design copyright. Mr. Williams has a list of various associations that are interested in seeing a copyright bill passed. Mr. LANHAM. You do not want it understood they object to this bill, but you do not know whether they do or not? Mr. CLIFFORD. They can not object and at the same time, concur. Mr. LANHAM. You said they approved of the principle of this bill. I mean do they have any objections to the particular provisions of this bill? Mr. CLIFFORD. You know how it is, gentlemen. It is very difficult to get thousands and thousands of manufacturers to sit down and read that bill through and through. But they do approve of a check-up upon design piracy, and even the man who is not interested in art and in industry ought to be able to see that there is an economic measure here. Think for a second. You have heard about printing silk. How about Jacquard upholstery goods? Jacquard is a device that is put into the loom involving a great deal of expense in the cutting of materials, the preparation of the design, the styling of the goods, and after all the processes are finished and after a man like Mr. Hanson-stylists we call them-has changed this color and that color and alter this and altered that, and after the vast amount of expense has been incurred he has produced something that is creditable, why, you ought to be able to see what loss it is to him if somebody else brings out something like it, quite enough like it to be a colorable imitation at least, and kills the sale of the better article. Millions and millions of dollars are lost to manufacturers through piracy. The CHAIRMAN. You know as a matter of experience that the manufacturers will not permit the trade journals to publish any design of some goods that they propose to manufacture in the future for fear of the pirates. Mr. CLIFFORD. Or something that they have just got out. I have to be very tactful. I go into a manufacturer and they show me their latest line and they say, "Now, Clifford, not a word about this." Why, it is a deplorable situation. I do not try to win your sympathy for the poor designer who wants to make more money, or for the manufacturer who wants to make more money. I do not think the manufacturer will make more money through the protection of the design. I do not think that. I heard some man say this morning that if he has got his design copyrighted he can boost the price to whatever he wants. No; his competitors with nice, clever designs, will prevent that. He can not boost the price beyond reasonable competition. Mr. LANHAM. The purpose is to get the part of the income which is going to the pirate. Mr. CLIFFORD. That part of the income that is due him because he owns the property. The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, Mr. Clifford, you do believe that if the manufacturer is protected in his design so that he would know that would be safe to him for a long period of time his prices would more generally be less than they are now. You have Mr. CLIFFORD. I wish you could all see it just that way. put in very nicely, Mr. Vestal. In dress silks the period of sale is more or less limited, because now that the woman does not require so much material to go into her dress, she has more dresses, she changes more frequently, styles change. But when it comes to the articles which go into the home, like lighting fixtures, curtains, draperies, laces, crepes, upholstery stuffs, they go into the home and they stay there and the style does not change, and if there is an alteration to be made or a replacement of a part the woman wants to feel that she can go back to that store and get that same stuff. Those things have a longer period of life than perhaps the more ephemeral dress fashion. Therefore, the dress manufacturer who produces something that is original, so original that the buyer wants it and thinks that the public will want it, he says to himself, "Well, I had better charge all I can for it because the gol darned pirates will have it inside of three months." But if he felt that it was his and he could sell it for a long period of time, he would be willing to get his price as close as possible. He would not increase the cost of his goods but he would decrease the cost of his goods. My object in coming here is not entirely a selfish reason, not entirely because I want to make my publications more interesting by publishing the newest things, but I think I am doing a service to my constituents who are silk men and embroidery men and lace men, and I think they will appreciate my efforts, humble as they are, to help put this bill through. The CHAIRMAN. Does anyone desire to ask Mr. Clifford any questions? Thank you very much, Mr. Clifford. Mr. WILLIAMS. Mr. Clifford has handed me a list of those who at different times in his long connection with this bill-those associations and organizations who have indicated their approval of the bill at different times, and their approval of the principles. I think I would like that made part of the record. The list referred to is as follows: Allied Wallpaper Industry. American Federation of Art (411 chapters). Associated Dress Industries of America. American Bar Association. Art Alliance of America. Art Center. Art-in-Trades Club. Authors' League. Children's Dress Manufacturers Association. Designers' Association. Federation of Trade Press Associations. Gift & Art Association of America. Greeting Card Association. Jewelery Crafts Association. Lace & Embroidery Trade Association. Manufacturers' Association of New Jersey. Manufacturing Jewelers' Association of Chicago. Merchants' Association of New York. National Association of Advertising Specialty Manufacturers. National Association of Chair Manufacturers. National Council of Lighting Fixture Manufacturers. National Council of Commercial Traveller Associations. Members: Associated Traveling Salesmen of New York; Boot & Shoe Travelers' Association of New York; Boston Shoe Travelers' Association; Commercial Travelers' Lace & Embroidery Association; Eastern & Middle West Travelers' Association; Far New England Manufacturing Jewelers' & Silversmiths' Association. New York Patent Law Association. New York School of Applied Design for Women. New York School of Fine and Applied Art. New York University. Parlor Frame Manufacturers Association. Patent Section of the American Bar Association. Retail Jewelers' Association. Salamandi Club. School Art League, cooperating with: Metropolitan Museum of Art; Brooklyn Museum; National Academy of Design; Board of Education, New York City; Public Education Association; Municipal Art Society; Architectural League of New York; New York Water Color Club; American Federation of Arts; Art Alliance of America. Silk Association of America. Silk Travelers' Association. Stationers' Association of New York City. Sterling Silverware Manufacturers Association. United Women's Wear League; United Waist Manufacturers; United Underwear Manufacturers; United Petticoat Manufacturers; United Women's Neckwear Association; United Infants' & Children's Wear Manufacturers. University of Wisconsin. Upholstery Association of America. Wallpaper Manufacturers Association of America. Women's neckwear Association. I am going to ask Mr. Gotshal to introduce some of those whom he knows. Mr. GOTSHAL. The Converter's Association have asked me to deliver to you a letter from them approving this bill. May I read this to you? The CHAIRMAN. Will you just explain to the committee what a converter does before you read that? Mr. GOTSHAL. A converter is a man who buys what they call the grey goods; that is, goods that are undyed and unprinted, and he takes those goods and transfers them into something that has a design on it, or he does anything to change the goods from what they call goods in the grey state to goods in the finished state that are sold to the public. That is generally what is meant by a converter. (Mr. Gotshal read the letter, as follows:) Hon. ALBERT H. VESTAL, Washington, D. C. CONVERTERS' ASSOCIATION, DEAR SIR: The matter of H. R. 7243 was to-day taken up for consideration by our board of directors. This organization is an association of 18 years' standing and is the representative cotton goods association in the United States. Among our members are most of the large organizations converting cotton goods in this country as well as many of the smaller ones. Our members are vitally interested in the protection of designs used by them in their business. |